So how should we teach modesty?

[DarkLight]

I’ve been thinking a fair amount about the modesty issues. I believe in modesty as a virtue. Yet a lot of women have complained, somewhat rightly, that modesty standards end up being all about men, or that they end up making women feel ashamed of their bodies (especially those of us who have shapes that never seem to be represented in “modest” modelling).

Here’s some of the things I wish someone had told me as a girl:

As a woman, God made you beautiful. Sex is good and your body is good. Not all women have the same bodies, but you are only responsible for taking care of the body you have. It’s not wrong to want to look attractive.

Our society likes to make a lot of judgements based on what you look like. If you have a body that’s seen as more sexualized, that doesn’t mean you have to try to hide that you have that sort of body. If you have a body that’s not as attractive that’s ok too, you don’t have to try to change your body.

Women deserve respect. A woman shouldn’t be afraid to expect that men in her life will respect her. A man who pressures you into going past your own boundaries, even if you’re not going “all the way”, is not a man who respects you. And a good Christian man will not ask you to have sex with him before you’re married.

Unfortunately some men out there are just pigs. And the pigs are often the loudest ones. Some men will be crude or treat you like an object no matter how you dress or act. These men aren’t your fault, and they don’t necessarily mean you’re doing something wrong. Even if you do dress in a way that’s not appropriate, that doesn’t excuse men who try to harass you or touch you without your permission.

 

[AlTheCollegeGal]

I think it’s definitely important to make it clear that everyone is called to modesty, not just women. In basically every modesty thread here, it is generally seen as something only women need to worry about without regard to what styles on men are also not appropriate.

 

[GEddie]

I think it’s definitely important to make it clear that everyone is called to modesty, not just women. In basically every modesty thread here, it is generally seen as something only women need to worry about without regard to what styles on men are also not appropriate.

And before getting into buzzwords like “appropriate”, we also need to make clear that modesty is not formality. Modesty is not about hidden skin or even all about clothing, it is the whole sense of the body.

Wanting to see everybody dressed more elegantly is a formality issue, not modesty.

One can be formal and immodest, and informal but modest. The inverses also apply.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Hobbes42]

I think it’s definitely important to make it clear that everyone is called to modesty, not just women. In basically every modesty thread here, it is generally seen as something only women need to worry about without regard to what styles on men are also not appropriate.

That’s true. At least 3 times in the last 2 months there have been several threads by men talking about how they lecture their girlfriends about how they dress. Men are responsible for their own behaviour, and for controlling their own eyes.

 

[DarkLight]

I think it’s definitely important to make it clear that everyone is called to modesty, not just women. In basically every modesty thread here, it is generally seen as something only women need to worry about without regard to what styles on men are also not appropriate.

I think a careful, gentle acknowledgement of homosexuality is also called for. As a woman with ssa myself, I often felt like the way modesty was framed tended to make my sexuality into a threat. I have heard even worse from same-sex attracted men, that many people find the mere idea that someone of the same sex might be attracted to them to be frightening or disgusting. But then no consideration to how modesty might affect such people is given at all.

 

[sepgs2004]

Dear brother/sister in our Lord Jesus Christ

Wishes.

Do not take my words in any other sense than it is my personal opinion.

To me, Christian modesty is to help the environment, especially people of the opposite sex who are or could be around me or could be watching me now or later, in reducing the possibilities of lustful temptations as much as possible. The degree of such efforts made by a person will sure is directly proportional to the degree of Love relationship one has with our God Jesus Christ. Judgement shall only be given by God, because He knows the situation in and out.

In this world, there are men who are intentionally looking for temptations. Some men are too bad in the state of their soul, either at that time or at that point of their life, that they could even get too much tempted just by looking at a modestly dressed women or even just by looking at a tree that looks like a woman.

At the same time, on the other end, some women would not care (or believe - which is possible depending upon the way one is raised) in such temptations of men at all. Some would even live their life (or earn their living) off of this situation.

Most of the people would not care to think on why women likes to dress the way they dress whether modest or immodest. The choice of dressing is mostly situational and/or occasional. That we dress for the occasion mostly. If not for others eyes or opinions, why would anyone care to dress the way they dress? That is where modesty comes into the picture. A dress can draw attention of others. But if it draws the lustful attention of others, then it is immodest. Well this certainly depends on the status of the souls of the viewers.

If we go into a nude club dress shop, we would find only those kind of dresses. So the availability of dresses by the scale of modesty depends upon the state of the world all together. I have heard and believe that it is harder to find good dresses in general stores as opposed to a decade before.

*It is analogous to the heat of a cup of coffee. One may find it hot whereas the other may not. It depends on the status of their tongue. It is worth to be noted that some even sued some companies for the coffee and/or the cup being hot. So, whether it is hot or not, as a CYA policy, the companies started to mention on the cup that it could be hot and demanded careful handling. *

In this case, the dress speaks for itself. It has the mention already as one looks. Despite why a women chose to wear that dress, if any one finds it immodest, since it is written as they see the dress, they better choose not to look at it.

In my personal wish, following reasons are to be more enacted in the current Christian world than any other:

• Because no one can be judged by a fellow human being as per our Lord Jesus Christ, women as well shall not be judged of their modesty by their dress
• God gave free will to everyone and it includes women. Let them practice their freewill to any extent possible. No one, other than the woman in context, can do anything on this sort.
• Men are supposed to be pure in their heart without any reservations or expectations or situational blamings

Regarding your question my brother/sister, one’s choice of modesty has to be gauged and guided by the Love relationship we have with our God. Because this is what is going to count in the end. It is better if it is not solely gauged or guided by what the world thinks. It is good if we always remember the 2 boiled down commandments. We can safely leave the rest to God.

Thanks.

 

[DarkLight]

I think we should probably stay away from language like “as much as possible.” So, using myself as an example, I would probably get less lustful attention if I wore tight sports bras all the time. But I don’t think that’s something I’m responsible to do. My body comes with a larger than average chest for my size. That’s how God made me, and the fact that our society sees that as more sexual doesn’t mean I’m responsible for hiding it.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I was with you until “some men are pigs”. One of the reasons that I find the modesty threads on this site upsetting is because so often horrible things are said to/about women. These things are things that I would not allow anyone to say to my daughter because of how they may impact her mind and how she views herself. I’m sure you know what kind of things I’m talking about.

Likewise, there are things that I would not allow someone to say to my growing son. One of those things is that “men are pigs” (even with the qualifier ‘some’). I would never want to give my son the impression that his natural curiosities, and later urges, are “pig” like. Nor would I want my daughter to have that kind of understanding of male sexuality.

Instead, I would say something like: “There are people in this world who place satisfying their own urges above the safety and comfort of others. These people are abusive, and you are in no way responsible for their behavior-regardless of how you look at the time. Should one of these people ever start harassing or touching you…” Pigs don’t coerce people into sex, touch others inappropriately, or make sexual comments to others-abusers do. I want my children of both genders to be able to identify abusers and keep themselves safe.

Not only does the above avoid vilifying men, it prepares the child for anyone who might approach them inappropriately. Like you, my breasts are very large for my frame, and I developed very early. I started middle school wearing a C cup, and I left wearing a DD. For every 2 males that made inappropriate comments or tried to touch me, there was at least one middle aged woman that would do the same. I would get public comments about my “figure”, and how I was “turning into a woman”. It upset me, made me feel self-conscious, and definitely (and rightly) creeped me out! Even as an adult, it is older, female coworkers who like to make comments about “If I had your body…” or “Someone with a figure like yours…” I don’t know where these women got the idea that commenting on the sexual aspects of a colleague’s body is ok. but it’s not. I wish my mom had taught me when I was a kid how to shut these women up, but she only focused on the creepy men. Now, as an adult, I don’t bat an eye. I give these women a surprised look and tell them that I don’t feel comfortable discussing my body-end of story.

 

[ialsop]

I think it’s definitely important to make it clear that everyone is called to modesty, not just women. In basically every modesty thread here, it is generally seen as something only women need to worry about without regard to what styles on men are also not appropriate.

Consider a thought experiment. First, remember modesty is to prevent lust.
Not, a boy walks by the side of a road in nothing but a speedo. What is a car packed full of girls going to think? Ewww…
Now a girl in noting but a bikini walks by. What is a car full of guys going to think? Ooooo…

So really, ARE they equal priorities? Plus, guys have a MUCH MUCH MUCH easier time being modest in day to day dress…

 

[AlTheCollegeGal]

Consider a thought experiment. First, remember modesty is to prevent lust.
Not, a boy walks by the side of a road in nothing but a speedo. What is a car packed full of girls going to think? Ewww…
Now a girl in noting but a bikini walks by. What is a car full of guys going to think? Ooooo…

So really, ARE they equal priorities? Plus, guys have a MUCH MUCH MUCH easier time being modest in day to day dress…

This is an overgeneralization. Some women may find the man in a speedo extremely distracting, and as many pointed out, there are some who have SSA who would find the man in a speedo to be much more provocative than the woman in a bikini.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

This is an overgeneralization. Some woman may find the man in a speedo to be extremely distracting, and as many pointed out, there are some who have SSA who would find the man in a speedo to be much more provocative than the woman in a bikini.

I live in a very young, active neighborhood. A LOT of attractive and very fit 20 and 30-something men go for runs shirtless.

We women definitely notice.

 

[ialsop]

I was with you until “some men are pigs”. One of the reasons that I find the modesty threads on this site upsetting is because so often horrible things are said to/about women. These things are things that I would not allow anyone to say to my daughter because of how they may impact her mind and how she views herself. I’m sure you know what kind of things I’m talking about.

Likewise, there are things that I would not allow someone to say to my growing son. One of those things is that “men are pigs” (even with the qualifier ‘some’). I would never want to give my son the impression that his natural curiosities, and later urges, are “pig” like. Nor would I want my daughter to have that kind of understanding of male sexuality.

Instead, I would say something like: “There are people in this world who place satisfying their own urges above the safety and comfort of others. These people are abusive, and you are in no way responsible for their behavior-regardless of how you look at the time. Should one of these people ever start harassing or touching you…”

Not only does the above avoid vilifying men, it prepares the child for anyone who might approach them inappropriately. Like you, my breasts are very large for my frame, and I developed very early. I started middle school wearing a C cup, and I left wearing a DD. For every 2 males that made inappropriate comments or tried to touch me, there was at least one middle aged woman that would do the same. I would get public comments about my “figure”, and how I was “turning into a woman”. Even as an adult, it is older, female coworkers who like to make comments about “If I had your body…” or “Someone with a figure like yours…” I don’t know where these women got the idea that commenting on the sexual aspects of a colleague’s body was ok. but it’s not. I wish my mom had taught me when I was a kid how to shut these women up, but she only focused on the creepy men. Now, as an adult, I don’t bat an eye. I give these women a surprised look and tell them that I don’t feel comfortable discussing my body-end of story.

AMEN!!!

 

[Cone]

That’s true. At least 3 times in the last 2 months there have been several threads by men talking about how they lecture their girlfriends about how they dress. Men are responsible for their own behaviour, and for controlling their own eyes.

The Blessed Mother at Fatima warned that women who dress immodestly are at risk of damnation for contributing to the sins of lust of men. Ignore that warning at your peril.

 

[DarkLight]

I was with you until “some men are pigs”. One of the reasons that I find the modesty threads on this site upsetting is because so often horrible things are said to/about women. These things are things that I would not allow anyone to say to my daughter because of how they may impact her mind and how she views herself. I’m sure you know what kind of things I’m talking about.

Likewise, there are things that I would not allow someone to say to my growing son. One of those things is that “men are pigs” (even with the qualifier ‘some’). I would never want to give my son the impression that his natural curiosities, and later urges, are “pig” like. Nor would I want my daughter to have that kind of understanding of male sexuality.

Instead, I would say something like: “There are people in this world who place satisfying their own urges above the safety and comfort of others. These people are abusive, and you are in no way responsible for their behavior-regardless of how you look at the time. Should one of these people ever start harassing or touching you…”

Not only does the above avoid vilifying men, it prepares the child for anyone who might approach them inappropriately. Like you, my breasts are very large for my frame, and I developed very early. I started middle school wearing a C cup, and I left wearing a DD. For every 2 males that made inappropriate comments or tried to touch me, there was at least one middle aged woman that would do the same. I would get public comments about my “figure”, and how I was “turning into a woman”. Even as an adult, it is older, female coworkers who like to make comments about “If I had your body…” or “Someone with a figure like yours…” I don’t know where these women got the idea that commenting on the sexual aspects of a colleague’s body was ok. but it’s not. I wish my mom had taught me when I was a kid how to shut these women up, but she only focused on the creepy men. Now, as an adult, I don’t bat an eye. I give these women a surprised look and tell them that I don’t feel comfortable discussing my body-end of story.

I think that’s a good point, certainly. What I wanted to get across was essentially a counter to the idea that modesty should prevent men from lusting after you. Some men will leer or make rude comments no matter what. You have a point that some women will make comments they shouldn’t as well. But these things can happen even to perfectly modestly dressed women.

 

[DarkLight]

The Blessed Mother at Fatima warned that women who dress immodestly are at risk of damnation for contributing to the sins of lust of men. Ignore that warning at your peril.

What I have seen the modesty rhetoric lead to in many woman is not chastity but despair and imbalance. Some of us have been the targets of lust even covered, and it is difficult to deal with this rhetoric when it seems that stepping out our from doors without taking extreme measures leads to sins.

 

[ialsop]

What I have seen the modesty rhetoric lead to in many woman is not chastity but despair and imbalance. Some of us have been the targets of lust even covered, and it is difficult to deal with this rhetoric when it seems that stepping out our from doors without taking extreme measures leads to sins.

Here is what needs to happen:
Women teach girls about modesty.
Men teach boys about guarding eyes.

Thus, girls dont get lusted after unwillingly and guys dont get aroused unwillingly.

 

[LightBound]

The Blessed Mother at Fatima warned that women who dress immodestly are at risk of damnation for contributing to the sins of lust of men. Ignore that warning at your peril.

There is much confusion about what was supposedly said or not said by an apparition of the Blessed Mother at Fatima. This is the first time I’ve heard one where Mary is blaming women for the sins of men - usually the quote is similar to “certain fashions will be introduced…” and some sola skirtura adherents try to use this because they erroneously think women wearing bifurcated pieces of cloth on the lower half of their body started soon after this. They are wrong. Fashions is defined by much more than apparel and many new trends not involving clothes can just as easily be tied into this.

That being said, I would refer people to the Vatican’s official page on Fatima. Apparitions and what was said/not said have been known to take on a life of their own with their followers.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Our society likes to make a lot of judgements based on what you look like. If you have a body that’s seen as more sexualized, that doesn’t mean you have to try to hide that you have that sort of body. If you have a body that’s not as attractive that’s ok too, you don’t have to try to change your body.

And before getting into buzzwords like “appropriate”, we also need to make clear that modesty is not formality. Modesty is not about hidden skin or even all about clothing, it is the whole sense of the body.

I believe the curriculum being asked in the OP would find itself here if we put the two above quotes together.

P.S.

Being both male and lapsed, I obviously don’t really care much for the whole custody of the eyes thing anymore. (Although, I do think there’s a bit of fine art in physical admiration without getting caught. )

That said though, I’m all for girls telling us guys to stop looking at porn actresses if they help us bring down the institution that elevates MMA fighters and football players to the level of Greek gods.

 

[ialsop]

I believe the curriculum being asked in the OP would find itself here if we put the two above quotes together.

P.S.

Being both male and lapsed, I obviously don’t really care much for the whole custody of the eyes thing anymore. (Although, I do think there’s a bit of fine art in physical admiration without getting caught. )

That said though, I’m all for girls telling us guys to stop looking at porn actresses if they help us bring down the institution that elevates MMA fighters and football players to the level of Greek gods.

Wow…

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Modesty is all about dressing and behaving to attract. **If you are not trying to dress and behave to attract, then you are doing something wrong. **

Modesty is part of the virtue of temperance, and according to St. Thomas Aquinas, the prerequisite to practicing temperance is the desire to be desirable, along with the fear of being ugly. In philosophical terms, these are called honesty (the love of the beauty of temperance) and shamefacedness (the fear of the disgrace of intemperance).

But of course we have to be discerning on what and whom to attract. Do you want to attract respect, or disrespect? Do you want to attract virtue, or vice? Do you want to attract grace, or sin?

And yet ultimately, deep down inside, there is one who we want to attract the most: God. That is the main driving force of why all men and women have an instinct to want to be desirable: we want to woo and attract Beauty Himself with our beauty.

Don’t believe me? Read the Song of Songs.