So I hear You All Know Something About the Assumption/Dormition

[TrueLight]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in converting to the RC, but I have some issues with some doctrines like the Assumption.

Someone suggested I post a question in this forum.

Hi, TL…my suggestion is you may want to post this question in the Eastern section. The knowledge of the Assumption or Dormition, came from our Eastern brethen, as this is where Mary stayed with John after the resurrection/ascension. They have a deeper knowledge in this regard."

Help me out folks!

I don’t see enough evidence that Mary was assumed into heaven or anywhere else. Just because we cannot find her body doesn’t mean she is not buried somewhere. As someone pointed out in another thread, we can’t find Joseph’s body either and surely he was venerated as well.

Do you have any information on John and Mary’s travels?

What is your understanding of the dormition?
When did EC’s first start believing that Mary was assumed into heaven?
Is there any documentation on Early Orthodox teachings on the assumption?
Is Mary venerated in the EC as much as in the RC?

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[nickybr38]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in converting to the RC, but I have some issues with some doctrines like the Assumption.

Someone suggested I post a question in this forum.

Help me out folks!

I don’t see enough evidence that Mary was assumed into heaven or anywhere else. Just because we cannot find her body doesn’t mean she is not buried somewhere. As someone pointed out in another thread, we can’t find Joseph’s body either and surely he was venerated as well.

Do you have any information on John and Mary’s travels?

What is your understanding of the dormition?
When did EC’s first start believing that Mary was assumed into heaven?
Is there any documentation on Early Orthodox teachings on the assumption?
Is Mary venerated in the EC as much as in the RC?

Thanks so much for your help!

Is it the doctrine of the Assumption itself that you find difficult to believe (that a human being does not have to die before they can go to heaven?), or just the fact that Mary was Assumed?

If the former - Mary was not the only human being who was Assumed. There is another in the Bible who was Assumed into heaven without a natural death.

If the latter - this hasn’t been an issue with me so I’m afraid I can’t give you much help. I’m sure others here will have much useful information for you! Good luck!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do we believe something just because there’s evidence of it? Or because we were told so by those whom we trust with the faith? This Sunday is Thomas Sunday in the Byzantine Rite. Its a good question to ask.

There is the tradition of the Dormition where the Apostles gathered around Mary at her deathbed. St. Thomas came late and didn’t make it in time. He asked to go to Mary’s grave. When he got there he received the vision of Mary’s body being assumed into heaven. Mary also dropped her girdle to Thomas as proof of the Assumption. This is a reversal of what happened with Jesus where Thomas did see Jesus risen until later on. Now Thomas is the first to witness the Assumption of Mary.

That is the tradition.

Now, you have to ask, is there proof? You know, the way the Byzantine faith is carried doesn’t always rely on proof. There is always the big picture. As with the Presentation of the Theotokos to the Temple, there is no scriptural proof of it, only tradition. But the point is not about proving it right or wrong. We follow the tradition because of what it means to our faith. One of our priests said it this way. “What does this mean to our faith?” Believing in the Assumption of Mary means we acknowledge she live an immaculate and pure life on earth, unstained by sin from conception to death. We also acknowledge that her body is the new Ark of the Covenant, for it bore the New Covenant, the Body and Blood of Christ, in her womb. That is what this tradition means to our faith.

 

[TrueLight]

Is it the doctrine of the Assumption itself that you find difficult to believe (that a human being does not have to die before they can go to heaven?), or just the fact that Mary was Assumed?

If the former - Mary was not the only human being who was Assumed. There is another in the Bible who was Assumed into heaven without a natural death.

If the latter - this hasn’t been an issue with me so I’m afraid I can’t give you much help. I’m sure others here will have much useful information for you! Good luck!

It’s the latter, LOL.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is it the doctrine of the Assumption itself that you find difficult to believe (that a human being does not have to die before they can go to heaven?), or just the fact that Mary was Assumed?

If the former - Mary was not the only human being who was Assumed. There is another in the Bible who was Assumed into heaven without a natural death.

If the latter - this hasn’t been an issue with me so I’m afraid I can’t give you much help. I’m sure others here will have much useful information for you! Good luck!

Aha! This proves my point in another thread where there is a lengthy discussion between myself and another Byzantine brother in faith. The Assumption never says Mary did not die. The tricky thing here is the creative language used by the Roman Catholic Church can lead one to believe that she died or she didn’t. They played it on the safe side, if you were to ask me. The tradition of the Dormition always maintained that Mary died and she was even laid in a tomb. “Dormition” even means “falling asleep” or the term for death.

 

[TrueLight]

There is the tradition of the Dormition where the Apostles gathered around Mary at her deathbed. St. Thomas came late and didn’t make it in time. He asked to go to Mary’s grave. When he got there he received the vision of Mary’s body being assumed into heaven. Mary also dropped her girdle to Thomas as proof of the Assumption. This is a reversal of what happened with Jesus where Thomas did see Jesus risen until later on. Now Thomas is the first to witness the Assumption of Mary.

That is the tradition.

When did the tradition you described above began to be spoken of? I’m not sure I am asking this correctly.

For example,
** 20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?**

So this was the origin of the rumor.

Are there any early Eastern written documents that talk of the assumption at all? Even if all the teaching says is that so and so said from the beginning that Mary’s body disappeared or something like that.

Someone in another thread gave me some citations that I am going to look into, but I’m wondering if the Eastern churches have anything similar.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I must apologize I did not answer your specific questions. So I will try to do so right now

Do you have any information on John and Mary’s travels?

Tradition has it that Mary lived in Ephesus. Also the reason why Luke had so much detail around the birth of Jesus was that he and St. Paul traveled to Ephesus. He would have definitely asked Mary about it.

What is your understanding of the dormition?

That Mary died and a short time later her body was assumed into heaven.

When did EC’s first start believing that Mary was assumed into heaven?

From Wikipedia, evidence showed that the tradition exists from 500AD (ie. first written evidence of the tradition). It would have existed much earlier but its hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint the exact time

Is there any documentation on Early Orthodox teachings on the assumption?

You can look at icons of the Dormition.

Is Mary venerated in the EC as much as in the RC?

Thanks so much for your help!

Very much so. Every iconostasis should include an icon of the Theotokos as well as Christ Pantokrator. Every other icon can be anything else. In celebrations at places without an iconostasis, an icon of Christ Pantokrator and the Theotokos must be put up where an iconostasis should be. Also in Divine Liturgy, Mary is mentioned several times and we would even sing a hymn to her.

 

[ConstantineTG]

When did the tradition you described above began to be spoken of? I’m not sure I am asking this correctly.

For example,
** 20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?**

So this was the origin of the rumor.

Are there any early Eastern written documents that talk of the assumption at all? Even if all the teaching says is that so and so said from the beginning that Mary’s body disappeared or something like that.

Someone in another thread gave me some citations that I am going to look into, but I’m wondering if the Eastern churches have anything similar.

Its not a rumor, its tradition. Its something that has been accepted and taught in the Church from way back. Here is some info from Orthodox Wiki orthodoxwiki.org/Dormition

 

[TrueLight]

Thank you Constantine. Your references are very helpful!

 

[TimothyH]

Mary’s assumption into Heaven is right there in the Bible… almost.

Elijah was assumed into heaven without dying.

As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:11)

And although Moses died on Mount Nebo and was buried, Peter, James and John were witnesses to Moses’ glorified body as he and Elijah conversed with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration.

So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the LORD, died as the LORD had said; and he was buried in the ravine opposite Beth-peor in the land of Moab, but to this day no one knows the place of his burial. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6)

***About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray. While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke *of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. Peter and his companions had been overcome by sleep, but becoming fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. (Luke 9:28-32)

Peter even offers to build Elijah and Moses each a tent!

Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names “Sodom” and “Egypt,” where indeed their Lord was crucified. Those from every people, tribe, tongue, and nation will gaze on their corpses for three and a half days, and they will not allow their corpses to be buried. … But after the three and a half days, a breath of life from God entered them. When they stood on their feet, great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven say to them, “Come up here.” So they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies looked on. (Revelation 8:8-12)
The two witnesses in revelation 8 are raised from the dead and summoned into heaven. This is probably what happened to Moses and is the reason why “to this day no one knows the place of his burial.”

The Bible clearly tells us of at least three people who are assumed into heaven after dying and one who is assumed into heaven while still alive. If this priviledge was granted to Moses and Elijah then why not to Mary, the Mother of the Living God and spouse of the Holy Spirit as well?

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

Mary’s assumption into Heaven is right there in the Bible… almost.

Elijah was assumed into heaven without dying.

As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:11)

And although Moses died on Mount Nebo and was buried, Peter, James and John were witnesses to Moses’ glorified body as he and Elijah conversed with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration.

So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the LORD, died as the LORD had said; and he was buried in the ravine opposite Beth-peor in the land of Moab, but to this day no one knows the place of his burial. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6)

***About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray. While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke ***of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. Peter and his companions had been overcome by sleep, but becoming fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. (Luke 9:28-32)

Peter even offers to build Elijah and Moses each a tent!

Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names “Sodom” and “Egypt,” where indeed their Lord was crucified. Those from every people, tribe, tongue, and nation will gaze on their corpses for three and a half days, and they will not allow their corpses to be buried. … But after the three and a half days, a breath of life from God entered them. When they stood on their feet, great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven say to them, “Come up here.” So they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies looked on. (Revelation 8:8-12)
The two witnesses in revelation 8 are raised from the dead and summoned into heaven. This is probably what happened to Moses and is the reason why “to this day no one knows the place of his burial.”

The Bible clearly tells us of at least three people who are assumed into heaven after dying and one who is assumed into heaven while still alive. If this priviledge was granted to Moses and Elijah then why not to Mary, the Mother of the Living God and spouse of the Holy Spirit as well?

-Tim-

Hi Tim.

I almost hate to point this out because I’m setting myself up for the “sola scriptura” label.

But do you see the difference between the Elijah and Moses accounts? They are all in the Bible. It seems to me something as awesome as the assumption of the Mother of God would have been included in scripture somewhere.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hi Tim.

I almost hate to point this out because I’m setting myself up for the “sola scriptura” label.

But do you see the difference between the Elijah and Moses accounts? They are all in the Bible. It seems to me something as awesome as the assumption of the Mother of God would have been included in scripture somewhere.

If I were to follow your logic, then why for the forty days after your Lord’s resurrection was nothing documented about that time he spent with his disciples? He spoke to them. We don’t know what was said. It’s not recorded in scripture.
So, by your logic- we should also question the resurrection.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim.

I almost hate to point this out because I’m setting myself up for the “sola scriptura” label.

But do you see the difference between the Elijah and Moses accounts? They are all in the Bible. It seems to me something as awesome as the assumption of the Mother of God would have been included in scripture somewhere.

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

The word of the Lord.

-Tim-

 

[StrawberryJam]

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

The word of the Lord.

-Tim-

Thanks for posting that, I was saving it up if there was rebuttal. You are too good at this.

 

[dvdjs]

Do we believe something just because there’s evidence of it? Or because we were told so by those whom we trust with the faith? This Sunday is Thomas Sunday in the Byzantine Rite. Its a good question to ask.

There is the tradition of the Dormition where the Apostles gathered around Mary at her deathbed. St. Thomas came late and didn’t make it in time. He asked to go to Mary’s grave. When he got there he received the vision of Mary’s body being assumed into heaven. Mary also dropped her girdle to Thomas as proof of the Assumption. This is a reversal of what happened with Jesus where Thomas did see Jesus risen until later on. Now Thomas is the first to witness the Assumption of Mary.

That is the tradition…

This story is very similar to that told in the Wikipedia article on Thomas the Apostle. If differs from the sources you give on this thread - Wiki and Orthowiki on the Dormition, which are sparse in detail. The latter version are more consistent with the liturgical texts and synaxarion of the EO church.

What you have written may be pious legend, but it is not part of he liturgical the tradition of the eastern church. Trust yourself to the teaching of the church.

 

[StrawberryJam]

This story is very similar to that told in the Wikipedia article on Thomas the Apostle. If differs from the sources you give on this thread - Wiki and Orthowiki on the Dormition, which are sparse in detail. The latter version are more consistent with the liturgical texts and synaxarion of the EO church.

What you have written may be pious legend, but it is not part of he liturgical the tradition of the eastern church. Trust yourself to the teaching of the church.

Is the eastern church free of pious legends?
Genuine question I hope you can honestly consider before composing your post.

 

[dvdjs]

Aha! This proves my point in another thread where there is a lengthy discussion between myself and another Byzantine brother in faith. The Assumption never says Mary did not die. The tricky thing here is the creative language used by the Roman Catholic Church can lead one to believe that she died or she didn’t. They played it on the safe side, if you were to ask me. The tradition of the Dormition always maintained that Mary died and she was even laid in a tomb. “Dormition” even means “falling asleep” or the term for death.

You really need to familiarize yourself with the rhetoric of the Eastern liturgical texts. The stress is on the “translation to life”; we refer to her translation as “deathless dormition”. This language is subtle for a reason. Our faith teaches us of the insignificance of her falling asleep: she is not dead; she is alive an present body and soul in heaven. That is the tradition of the both the East and West. Quibbling over the amount of time that passed with her soul and body separated seems to little if any purpose.

 

[dvdjs]

Is the eastern church free of pious legends?

No. We love 'em.

 

[TimothyH]

Thanks for posting that, I was saving it up if there was rebuttal. You are too good at this.

I must return the compliment. Your point is well taken about Jesus speaking to the disciples about the Kingdom of God for 40 days but none of it being recorded.

-Tim-

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Bible clearly tells us of at least three people who are assumed into heaven after dying and one who is assumed into heaven while still alive. If this priviledge was granted to Moses and Elijah then why not to Mary, the Mother of the Living God and spouse of the Holy Spirit as well?

-Tim-

edit:
Sorry I misread your post. But Enoch was also assumed into heaven as Genesis says he didn’t die, just vanished from the earth.