C
ConstantineTG
Guest
What I read of the Dormition is that she is resurrected by Christ and assumed into heaven. I never deny that she possesses the Glorified Body today. But the facts of the tradition is that she did die first.
- Status
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Why does the icon of the Dormition show her in a tomb then if she did not pass from this world?
Further, read this fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-komesis.html
D
dvdjs
Guest
Of course she passed from this world, there is no doubt of that.
But: why do we sing of her “deathless dormition”?
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
I would plead with all readers of this thread, and CAF, to go to Divine Liturgy to see for themselves what devotion and love they have for the Theotokos.
Just look, and see.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
There really is no argument to be had is there? At least on most if not nearly all things.
Can you see why I cry hoping that the conflict can end?
I can’t see Christianity surviving without peace with East and West.
I can’t.
D
dvdjs
Guest
I don’t disagree with what you say here. But you have also, in other posts, included things in “the tradition” that are not in the liturgical tradition. In doing so you set up distinctions that are not substantive. This applies to the issues of “death” as well. I don’t get the doctrinaire fascination about whether the time-elasped between her last breath and her assumption was 3 nsec, 3 minute, 3 hours, or as you suggest, 3 days. Why would anyone care to think of this dogmatically. it misses the point entirely.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
You are missing my point. The Roman Catholic POV is that Mary did not die at all. She did not shed her mortal body to transcend into the immortal life. If you haven’t been paying attention, there is discussion of her being assumed into heaven like Enoch or Elijah. I’m contending that the longstanding tradition she passed first. Many, because of the creative and confusing language used in the dogmatization of the Assumption, now believe she did not die at all. That she was assumed 1 sec or 1 minute or 1 day or whatever time BEFORE death, not AFTER.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
In fact, there is a non-canonical book in which the Dormition of the Mother of God is described and which forms the basis for the ancient liturgical celebration of her Dormition and assumption, body and soul, into heaven. The text can be found here:
www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm
The New Testament itself was written by the Apostles who were themselves present at the burial of the Most Holy Mother of the Lord Jesus. This is a living tradition that is handed down in the living Church of Christ, in the first instance.
The Bible is the written Word of God. But it is part of that same living tradition of the Church of Christ and came out of it. When St Paul talked of written Scripture, he was ONLY talking about the Old Testament since the New Testament wasn’t written at that time.
There are other events, such as the Dormition of the Mother of God, that are acknowledged by the Church that have as their basis the orthodox, non-canonical writings and eye-witness accounts that are celebrated in the liturgical tradition, iconography etc.
In addition, the Orthodox Catholic tradition has a beautiful daily monastic service of the Panaghia or “All Holy” referring to the Mother of God served at noon. This is an ancient tradition taken from that of the Apostles themselves who always set a place at table for the Mother of the Lord Jesus. They were gathered together some days after her funeral and together saw her appear to them in the air, telling them that she would always intercede for them and Christians. They should always call on her to ask her to help them with her prayers.
The Panaghia service includes that Apostolic prayer of invocation which reads: “Most Holy Mother of our Lord, come to our assistance!”
Here is an excellent article on it together with some versions of the actual service itself:
www.prosphora.org/page41.html
This is done in Eastern monasteries before lunch in procession to the refectory and is a most beautiful tradition. Laity may also say those prayers before the mid-day meal, if we have the time and wish to!
Alex
www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm
The New Testament itself was written by the Apostles who were themselves present at the burial of the Most Holy Mother of the Lord Jesus. This is a living tradition that is handed down in the living Church of Christ, in the first instance.
The Bible is the written Word of God. But it is part of that same living tradition of the Church of Christ and came out of it. When St Paul talked of written Scripture, he was ONLY talking about the Old Testament since the New Testament wasn’t written at that time.
There are other events, such as the Dormition of the Mother of God, that are acknowledged by the Church that have as their basis the orthodox, non-canonical writings and eye-witness accounts that are celebrated in the liturgical tradition, iconography etc.
In addition, the Orthodox Catholic tradition has a beautiful daily monastic service of the Panaghia or “All Holy” referring to the Mother of God served at noon. This is an ancient tradition taken from that of the Apostles themselves who always set a place at table for the Mother of the Lord Jesus. They were gathered together some days after her funeral and together saw her appear to them in the air, telling them that she would always intercede for them and Christians. They should always call on her to ask her to help them with her prayers.
The Panaghia service includes that Apostolic prayer of invocation which reads: “Most Holy Mother of our Lord, come to our assistance!”
Here is an excellent article on it together with some versions of the actual service itself:
www.prosphora.org/page41.html
This is done in Eastern monasteries before lunch in procession to the refectory and is a most beautiful tradition. Laity may also say those prayers before the mid-day meal, if we have the time and wish to!
Alex
T
TrueLight
Guest
Yes Tim, I know that verse. My point is that for something as HUGE as the assumption, something that is so big in the life of the church, which by the way has a lot to do with the ensuing Marian veneration in generations that followed, I’m just surprised there is nothing.
Strawberry Jam, I know my bible. Every now and then someone will show me something in a different light, which is what I’m hoping to see here. But even if I didn’t know my Bible, I have been on this forum for almost 2 months. I have spent every day on here reading all these threads. so of course I’ve seen this verse.Thanks for posting that, I was saving it up if there was rebuttal. You are too good at this.
And this is not about debating for me. These are doctrines that serve as real stumbling blocks for me.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Is there anything online written by the Eastern Church that I can read?
T
TrueLight
Guest
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Yes - I provided a link for you in my post above re: the non-canonical book describing the last days of Mary’s life on earth and how her Son came to take her to Heaven.
The ancient Church also saw the assumption of Mary prophesied in Psalm 132:7-8:
“We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.”
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant (Revelation 11:19-12:1). The Lord ascended into Heaven and also brought His ark, just as King David took up residence in Jerusalem and escorted the ark to the same place.
We don’t speak of the “Ascension of Mary.” Christ ascended by His own power. But Mary was passively assumed into Heaven by Christ. His power accomplished the honor. And thus in Revelation, Mary as seen as being “in Heaven.”
Alex
The ancient Church also saw the assumption of Mary prophesied in Psalm 132:7-8:
“We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.”
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant (Revelation 11:19-12:1). The Lord ascended into Heaven and also brought His ark, just as King David took up residence in Jerusalem and escorted the ark to the same place.
We don’t speak of the “Ascension of Mary.” Christ ascended by His own power. But Mary was passively assumed into Heaven by Christ. His power accomplished the honor. And thus in Revelation, Mary as seen as being “in Heaven.”
Alex
T
TrueLight
Guest
Thank you!
I always found it strange that the Apostles themselves did not honor her, at least not in anyway that I could see. I love that there is a tradition of leaving a place at the table for her.
Edited: So I read some of the “The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.”
This is amazing and it is what I have been looking for.
Do you know why this account was not included in the scriptures? Is it considered not authentic?
T
TrueLight
Guest
I don’t mean to go off track, but I looked up who St John the Theologian was in OrthoWiki. I didn’t realize it was the Apostle and I saw this:
**St. John was exiled to the island of Patmos by Emperor Domitian around 90-95 A.D., and it was there that he received and wrote the Book of Revelation.
"Account of the miracle that occurred at his grave: When over 100 years old, St. John took seven disciples outside of Ephesus and had them dig a grave in the shape of a cross. St. John then went into the grave, and the disciples buried him there, alive. Later on, when his grave was opened, St. John’s body was not there. ‘On May 8 of each year, dust rises up from his grave, by which the sick are healed of various diseases.’ " [1] **
What does the Eastern Church believe about this? Another person assumed?
**St. John was exiled to the island of Patmos by Emperor Domitian around 90-95 A.D., and it was there that he received and wrote the Book of Revelation.
"Account of the miracle that occurred at his grave: When over 100 years old, St. John took seven disciples outside of Ephesus and had them dig a grave in the shape of a cross. St. John then went into the grave, and the disciples buried him there, alive. Later on, when his grave was opened, St. John’s body was not there. ‘On May 8 of each year, dust rises up from his grave, by which the sick are healed of various diseases.’ " [1] **
What does the Eastern Church believe about this? Another person assumed?
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
As I understand it, for every book that was included in the NT, two or three were not. These non-canonical books continued to be read by the faithful nevertheless as orthodox witnesses to the lives of Christ, the Apostles etc. What they contained made their way into liturgical prayers of the Church etc. I particularly like the Gospel of Nicodemus.
There are times in the New Testament where it seems as if it is assumed that people know about the non-canonical books. For example, in the first chapter of John’s Gospel, Nathaniel praises Jesus when our Lord says He saw him “under the sycamore tree.”
In the non-canonical books, there is a passage that says when Mary and Joseph were in Egypt with the Child Jesus, a plague/fever arose that was killing children in the area where they were. Nathaniel’s mother saw her other child die from it, and Nathaniel then became sick.
His mother heard about a woman with a miracle-working boy-child and sought her out. Mary, when she met her, told her not to be despondent but to only put her child on her son’s bed-clothes that happened to be “under the sycamore tree over there.”
When Nathaniel’s mother did this, Nathaniel was cured. So according to this, when Christ mentioned the sycamore tree to Nathaniel, He was referring to His own miraculous cure of him when they were children. Nathaniel knew that only a few people knew about his miraculous cure and, more importantly, that Jesus was the miracle-worker, even at so young an age, who cured him of what would have been a fatal disease.
I don’t remember in which non-canonical book I read this, but I can find out. In any event, these books are online (there is a Methodist foundation that has them online too).
Mary was with the Apostles at Pentecost, praying with them. It was appropriate for her to be there too since the Spirit overshadowed her at the annunciation and she was a true “Spirit-bearer” as well as “Christ-bearer.”
When all others left Christ, His Mother stood beneath His Cross. The Fathers wrote that when she did this, she was covered from head to foot in her Son’s dripping Blood.
At one point, she was said to have whispered to her dying Son the words, “Let me die with you!”
Her Son lifted His bleeding Head to look at her, and then turned away. It would be the only time that He would disobey her.
Anyway, I’m getting teary-eyed and this during Eastern Week!
Peace my brother!
Alex
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
The Christian Eastern Churches believe that St John was assumed into heaven, body and soul as well. He is highly honoured in the East as is his Gospel (which was memorized by monks along with the Psalms).
John’s grave was opened the very next day and was found to be empty. I’ve been to St John’s grave at Ephesus which is open and was originally covered by a stone slab dragged over it. The miracle of the breeze with the shiny dust particles carried by it is quite amazing.
I also visited the Monastery of St John on Patmos where the book of Revelation was written - a very holy place and I’ve a hand-painted icon of St John from there.
When we left the monastery, a very thin and old Greek monk came out. His hands were like those of a skeleton he was so thin. He smiled at me and said something to me in Greek that I did not understand. I kissed his hand, as is our tradition, and could not believe how bright his eyes were.
I then turned to call my wife to come back to meet this monk. I then turned back and . . .the monk was gone. It was no more than two seconds at most that I took my attention from him. I ran here and there looking for him, but he was gone. The fact that he looked frail and seemed to have to hold onto railing to stand up made such a hasty departure so unlikely - and I can tell you it sent real shivers up my spine.
This I experienced on the Isle of Patmost at the Monastery of St John . . .
Alex
T
TimothyH
Guest
It’s not about how much they wrote about something, including Mary, but often about how they wrote about it or where they placed it in relation to other things. Have a read of John’s Gospel and note that Mary is there only twice. But where? I’ll leave it for you to figure out.
Maybe I can offer a step in the right direction with regards to Marian doctrine?
Catholics state that Mary is our Mother.
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. (Revelation 12:1-2)
Who is the woman?
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (Revelation 12:5)
he child she gives birth to is Jesus and so the woman must be Mary. Then there is a war in heaven and a dragon is thown down to earth.
When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. (Revelation 12:13)
So the dragon goes after Mary but she is given wings to fly to the desert, which is probably a reference to her and her husband’s flight to Egypt.
***Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. *(Revelation 12:17)
The dragon can’t kill Mary so it goes after “Her offspring” instead. Who are Mary’s offspring? Those who keep Gods commandments (I try) and bear witness to Jesus (doing that right now). All Christians who bear witness to Jesus and obey his teaching are Mary’s offspring.
Mary is the Mother of Christians. It’s right there in black and white.
Apologies for going OT.
-Tim-
T
TrueLight
Guest
Alex, I cannot thank you enough.
It’s one thing to say one is not sola scriptura, but because I am a cerebral type of person, it doesn’t make sense to me that the Tradition of Mary’s assumption in itself has no written origin.
This accounting of St. John the theologian shows me that there is at least something written about one of the Appstles about Mary’s Assumption, even if it didn’t make it into the Bible. It does help to explain some of the origin of assumption and even Marian veneration.
I’m excited!
T
TrueLight
Guest
No apologies necessary.
I have always been taught the Woman represents either Israel or the Church.
It doesn’t phase me that it can refer to Mary.
- Status