So, i hear...

[redrosetea]

Growing in understanding does not mean a “change” in the strict sense of the word. Keep in mind that the Church many times “defines” things that it has always believed but that may have been challenged and therefore require a definitive statement at some point in history.

The doctrines concerning Mary actually came out of an infallible teaching. The truth of those doctrines may have been held in the Church’s Tradition for many centuries; now explained and proclaimed as doctrine, something we must believe as Catholics.

Correct…it took a while for the Trinity to be completely understood…some things evolve slowly

 

[spn82756]

Growing in understanding does not mean a “change” in the strict sense of the word. Keep in mind that the Church many times “defines” things that it has always believed but that may have been challenged and therefore require a definitive statement at some point in history.

The doctrines concerning Mary actually came out of an infallible teaching. The truth of those doctrines may have been held in the Church’s Tradition for many centuries; now explained and proclaimed as doctrine, something we must believe as Catholics.

First of all…I believe the teachings. Now you demonstrate their existence in the early Church. Especially purgatory. I’ll be waiting.

 

[redrosetea]

First of all…I believe the teachings. Now you demonstrate their existence in the early Church. Especially purgatory. I’ll be waiting.

If I might jump in…I heard Fr Groeschel discussing this just last night…remember these people were Jews and the book of Maccabees discusses praying for the dead…so did St Paul when he prayed for his dead friend Onesiporus(sp)

 

[humblelurker]

We have documents from 60 A.D. that explain the Mass in fairly great detail. The doctrines of the Church have not changed. Other aspects of the “Church” such as disciplines (celibacy), or certain feast days or Holy days certainly have evolved but the deposit of faith given to it by Christ has been closely guarded throughout the centuries and that is what is important.

So we are not a 100% carbon copy of the early church then? Things have changed! Would you say that Protestants have nothing at all in common with the early church? Absolutely and completely nothing at all? Not even a belief in Jesus? Not even some sacred scriptures? Nothing?

 

[spn82756]

Correct…it took a while for the Trinity to be completely understood…some things evolve slowly

I’m asking what the early Church believed. That is the crux of this thread. Now show me. All I asked was to show what the early Church believed and current similarities. I asked this question specifically because instead of trying to show how others have changed…I want to see how we’ve remained the same.

I profess loyalty to the Holy See…and I mean it. Instead of telling us how others have changed…I’ve asked how we’ve remained the same. Instead of answering that question…I’ve been given reasons for why WE’VE CHANGED!

 

[jericho777]

We are all called to a royal priesthood, to share the Gospel, but that is short of the authority Christ gave to the Apostles, who He appointed.

As Paul said, ‘Are all Apostles?’

As I have said before apostles can be disciples but disciples are not apostles. Just as all are not deacons or elders. dis·ci·ple (plural dis·ci·ples)
n

1. follower of person or idea: somebody who strongly believes in the teachings of a leader, a philosophy, or a religion, and tries to act according to them

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Now, if you’re using the term ‘disciple’ to represent ‘believers’, which appears to be a change from the original point you were making, then I can agree that’s what we are to do, if we want to take our brothers that far. With the times we’re supposed to forgive our brothers, we should forgive him and not take a disagreement to that extreme. But, if one does take them to the Church, individuals have no authority over what the Church binds and looses.

The word means believer as shown in Jn 6:60. Our difference also comes from how we define what is church. The first century vs. Rome. I know you don’t agree you think they are the same but I don‘t. That’s OK How we define church allows us to serve God in the manner He prescribes.

The point of our conversation was who was the Lord specifically speaking too? There were times He was instructing His Apostles on doctrines of the Church. That doesn’t mean we can’t learn from reading those things, but we cannot apply everything to us. He didn’t give ALL the keys to the kingdom of heaven, All the authority to bind and loose on earth, and all the authority to forgive or retain sins.

Yes I agree He talked to different groups at different times. Sometimes the 12 are called disciple along with other believers. As I said previously Jesus usually calls them by number “the 12”. A pastor has different authority and responsibility than a congregant. But the differences are not as great as the CC portrays them to be ( the elevated priesthood ). I am not prepared to discuss binding and loosing. There are different thoughts as to what it can imply.

Your original stance was that when Christ spoke to ‘disciples’ it wasn’t for Apostles only, because John said disciples. You haven’t responded to the fact that John never used the term ‘Apostles’.

John may never have used apostles but he certainly differentiates the two. Here is a good example. Same chapter and a couple verses apart. You can see the clear usage.

Jn 6: 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Jn 6:70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I just lost a long reply. So I’ll address this one.

Do you think the early Church had Mass or Divine Liturgy as we have today? The early Church did certainly believe in the Real Presence. That much we have. Did the early Church have a codified Canon? No. Did the early Church meet in the settings that Orthodox and Catholics ( as well as Anglicans ) do today. I don’t think so. I don’t think the early Church of the 1st…2nd or 3rd centuries followed many of the practices that are followed today. They certainly didn’t have the Creeds. They quite clearly had some different beliefs that were debated through the centuries.

I don’t think any Church resembles the first Churches. As a Catholic I feel with confidence that we and the Orthodox may profess most of the same beliefs…but many of our beliefs have been developed over time.

Christmas wasn’t even celebrated as a solemn feast in the early Church. There have been so many changes.

So Catholics…how does our Church resemble the early Church. Instead of saying what’s different about others…perhaps we should point out what is the same in the Catholic Church today.

Liturgy of the word…prayers…communion…

**Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation and to doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.

1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned and which have been committed to thee. Knowing of whom thou hast learned them:
2Ti 3:15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures which can instruct thee to salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

1Co 11:20 When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord’s supper.

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. **

 

[spn82756]

So we are not a 100% carbon copy of the early church then? Things have changed! Would you say that Protestants have nothing at all in common with the early church? Absolutely and completely nothing at all? Not even a belief in Jesus? Not even some sacred scriptures? Nothing?

Isn’t it great to be able to criticize others…then avoid answering the question for ourselves?

 

[spn82756]

Liturgy of the word…prayers…communion…

**Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation and to doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.

1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned and which have been committed to thee. Knowing of whom thou hast learned them:
2Ti 3:15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures which can instruct thee to salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:
2Ti 4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

1Co 11:20 When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord’s supper.

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. **

And…what does this have to do with my question?

 

[redrosetea]

So we are not a 100% carbon copy of the early church then? Things have changed! Would you say that Protestants have nothing at all in common with the early church? Absolutely and completely nothing at all? Not even a belief in Jesus? Not even some sacred scriptures? Nothing?

We have sacred tradition and always have had it…Tradition came before the Bible…the protestants reject tradition…I think they have nothing much in common with the early church predating the bible.we are not sola scriptura people

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

As I have said before apostles can be disciples but disciples are not apostles. Just as all are not deacons or elders. dis·ci·ple (plural dis·ci·ples)
n

1. follower of person or idea: somebody who strongly believes in the teachings of a leader, a philosophy, or a religion, and tries to act according to them

Yes I agree He talked to different groups at different times. Sometimes the 12 are called disciple along with other believers. As I said previously Jesus usually calls them by number “the 12”. A pastor has different authority and responsibility than a congregant. But the differences are not as great as the CC portrays them to be ( the elevated priesthood ). I am not prepared to discuss binding and loosing. There are different thoughts as to what it can imply.

John may never have used apostles but he certainly differentiates the two. Here is a good example. Same chapter and a couple verses apart. You can see the clear usage.

Jn 6: 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Jn 6:70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Ok, we are ‘edging’ into an agreement, removing some semantics. What’s still holding us back from a full agreement is the other discussion we were having. The example you use here took place in a synagogue, the other discussion it took place in a home. Homes were modest then, to say the least.

It would be easier if you returned to the other thread and discussed all the points raised…

 

[spn82756]

We have sacred tradition and always have had it…Tradition came before the Bible…the protestants reject tradition…I think they have nothing much in common with the early church predating the bible.we are not sola scriptura people

Ahhh…so developed Traditon (which I believe in) is a change. Purgatory was not part of the early Church. You’re sidestepping the question.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And…what does this have to do with my question?

The similarities between the Churches then and now…

 

[spn82756]

Ok, we are ‘edging’ into an agreement, removing some semantics. What’s still holding us back from a full agreement is the other discussion we were having. The example you use here took place in a synagogue, the other discussion it took place in a home. Homes were modest then, to say the least.

It would be easier if you returned to the other thread and discussed all the points raised…

HUH? The question is what is different and what is the same.

 

[TEPO]

Isn’t it great to be able to criticize others…then avoid answering the question for ourselves?

I see additions to the Church that have helped in guiding the faithful away from sin… The Church has not removed sacraments or traditions though… Especially ones of great importance in defending one from sin.

Why is it so important that we remain the same?

 

[spn82756]

The similarities between the Churches then and now…

What are the similarities and what are the changes.?

 

[redrosetea]

Ahhh…so developed Traditon (which I believe in) is a change. Purgatory was not part of the early Church. You’re sidestepping the question.

No I am not sidestepping anything I already explained purgatory…

 

[spn82756]

No I am not sidestepping anything I already explained purgatory…

It is a change!

 

[humblelurker]

Isn’t it great to be able to criticize others…then avoid answering the question for ourselves?

Hahahahahaha…Tooooooo Goooooooood my friend. How about this,

Treating others NOT how we want to be treated…perhaps revenge?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

HUH? The question is what is different and what is the same.

Sorry, this was in response to jericho777. He and I were in a dicussion on another thread and for some reason he’s chosen not to respond there, but make this a place to continue a disscussion on an unrelated issue.