P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
But it’s my feet that are cold right now…
- Status
S
spn82756
Guest
I second your motion!!! Let’s start forgetting this and be brothers and sisters in our Lord to each other.
GEEEEESSSSSSHHH could you send some heat my way?
H
humblelurker
Guest
Yes they do have things in common with what they know of the early church through scripture, as far as their interpretation understands, but not what is known through tradition as Catholics understand it.
R
redrosetea
Guest
That is correct…and as Catholics our faith is a stool with 3 legs Tradition, Scripture and the magesterium…all 3 must be present to be valid church teaching for us if any is missing it is not true church teaching
S
SteveVH
Guest
You certainly don’t lack arrogance. But you didn’t answer my question. The Catholic Church definitively states that it has believed this from the BEGINNING. You simply state that it isn’t true which more than implies that you must have some evidence, other than what you think the Orthodox believe. The very fact that they pray for the dead implies that they believe in some other place than heaven or hell. We call that place purgatory. Those in heaven do not require our prayers and for those in hell, prayers are useless.
I think it is you who needs to be educated.
H
humblelurker
Guest
I am not talking about “being” the early church, but “resembling” the early church in any way at all.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: They may not use the term purgatory, but if they pray for the dead, what’s the point if no purgatory.
You haven’t answer my question. If purgatory was not a teaching in the early Church as you posted, then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching
You haven’t answer my question. If purgatory was not a teaching in the early Church as you posted, then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching
W
whm
Guest
Are you looking for the word Purgatory? Or the concept of final purification following death for those who are not damned?
It took me less than 5 minutes to find a quote by St. Augustine on the matter. Clearly older then the 1000 AD date you keep mentioning. There are other quotes if you like but I think this one is quite clear.
“Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: They may not use the term purgatory, but if they pray for the dead, what’s the point if no purgatory.
You haven’t answered my question. If purgatory was not a teaching in the early Church as you posted, then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
**
Hahahahahaha…Tooooooo Goooooooood my friend. How about this,
Treating others NOT how we want to be treated…perhaps revenge?
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
this is your enterpretation. but it doesnt matter. there is priesthood in the CC. how was the priesthood in judaism?
as far as i know Bible believers have been trying this for years. this is nothing new? do you know why, they are seeking the Church of the Bible?
"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
S
spn82756
Guest
From the Orthodox Church:
**The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory
**
orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx
Perhaps you are correct about who needs education…perhaps you are not. I guess ignorance supercedes arrogance.
H
humblelurker
Guest
My comment was on Catholics treating Protestants NOT as Catholics themselves want to be treated, but as Catholics are treated. Revenge? Is that what this thread is about? You protestants prove you resemble the early church whether we Catholics can prove it or not?
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
Not me, St Augustine does it. but it doesnt really matter what St Augustine says, doesnt it? since according to you there is no authority in the Church who can judge what is True and what is not. correct?
"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
S
SyCarl
Guest
Whatever Augustine may have thought about purgatory, he did not appear to hold it as something that must be believed.
(The Enchiridion Chapter 69)
newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm
Now if a proposition goes from something that may be believed to something that must be believed, that, to me, is a clear change in doctrine.
H
humblelurker
Guest
Who is this directed at?
S
SteveVH
Guest
Thank you for proving my point:
“On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire.” (From "The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory).
The only argument here is the method of purification, not the existence of purgatory. They very clearly believe in a state of purification after death.
You know, I’m not sure I have ever encountered a “Catholic” who is so opposed to the Church’s teachings. Are you really a Catholic or are you a troll?
H
humblelurker
Guest
I will have to pick this up tomorrow.
Peace and Grace of Christ be with you.
Peace and Grace of Christ be with you.
W
whm
Guest
“That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire”
Your translation reads different than mine, interesting. I think he (Augustine) made an accurate statement. It is hidden for the vast majority of folks(noncanonized saints) as to how much purgation if any they experience. The point is that purgatory was being discussed early on in the Church and not “made up” a 1000 years in.
Here is another quote from Augustine.
“But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” ( (St. Augustine, Sermons 172:2) emphasis added
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
not necessary since the Church came from the Jewish Tradition. Tradition given by God to them. the Church, the New Jesuralem. the Church is built much like Judaism.
if you think that these things are invention of the Church and it does not come from God, what else do you think that the Church has invented?
**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**
- Status