So, i hear...

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The ultimate evading of the question. The Church was born in Jerusalem. On Pentecost. But what does that have to do with the question? The Catholic and Orthodox were the same. WE have added doctrines different from the original Church.
that is your opinion.

are you suggestion that the CC continues to make doctrines without any basis? that she is lying about the whole thing?

how does your questions change the fact that the Church is the Church of the Bible? that still resembles the Church of the Bible?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
 
You certainly don’t lack arrogance. But you didn’t answer my question. The Catholic Church definitively states that it has believed this from the BEGINNING. You simply state that it isn’t true which more than implies that you must have some evidence, other than what you think the Orthodox believe. The very fact that they pray for the dead implies that they believe in some other place than heaven or hell. We call that place purgatory. Those in heaven do not require our prayers and for those in hell, prayers are useless.

I think it is you who needs to be educated.
Amen it wasn’t I just gooled it but do not know how to put the reference here.
 
Darn it! But were they part of the early Church???

Answer the question and show proof.

Apparently you are not able to. Maybe we should bring this up with the Orthodox. They might have something to say. They were/are a part of the early Church. Their doctrines have not changed.
they werent? how would you know? were there? do you have the understanding why these doctrines were made?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
 
A bold statement? Maybe you should investigate the beliefs of the Orthodox Church. You obviously are lacking in knowledge of their theology. THEY NEVER HAD A BELIEF IN PURGATION! THEY AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WERE ONE FOR 1000 YEARS. EDUCATE YOURSELF.
JL: They may not use the term purgatory, but if they pray for the dead, what’s the point if no purgatory.

You haven’t answered my question, this is the fourth time posted. If purgatory was not a teaching in the early Church as you posted, then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching
 
Thank you for proving my point:

“On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire.”

The only argument here is the method of purification, not the existence of purgatory. They very clearly believe in a state of purification after death. (From "The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory).

You know, I’m not sure I have ever encountered a “Catholic” who is so opposed to the Church’s teachings. Are you really a Catholic or are you a troll?
I am not opposed to Catholic teaching in any way. I believe in purgatory. I believe in all Catholic doctrines. Apparently you have not read some of my other posts. Ignorance is bliss.

This thread started by stating that Protestants are nothing like the original Church. None are. You are free to believe what you choose about me. In playing “devils” advocate it stirred some real emotions.

It’s not nice to hear that we have all changed. But the fact is we have. Now…It’s time for me to pray the Rosary. You continue with your delusions.

Purgatory refers to a doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church which posits that those who die in a state of grace undergo a purification in order to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030).[1]
The Orthodox Church has neither explicitly recognized the term “purgatory” nor officially accepted such a state, which is distinct from the more general being “asleep in the Lord.” In his book entitled Why Do We Reject Purgatory?, Coptic Pope Shenouda III presents many theological and biblical arguments against Purgatory. For example, he refers to 1 Thess 4:16,17, “And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord”, in which Paul describes the Last Day saying that those faithful who are still alive will meet the Lord with those who rise from the dead and then remain with Him always, and wonders, “Are these faithful (alive on the Last Day) exempt from Purgatory? Or is God showing partiality towards them?”[2]
 
This is the Churches opinion and that is all that counts…from Wikipedia

The Roman Catholic tradition of purgatory has a history that dates back, before Jesus, to the worldwide practice of caring for the dead and praying for them, and to the belief, found in Judaism,[9] from which Christianity grew, that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification. The same practice appears in other traditions, such as the medieval Chinese Buddhist practice of making offerings on behalf of the dead, who are said to suffer numerous trials.[1] Roman Catholic belief in purgatory is based, among other reasons, on this practice of prayer for the dead,[10] a practice that presupposes that the dead are thereby assisted between death and their entry into their final abode.[1]

The English Roman Catholic scholar Cardinal John Henry Newman argued that the essence of the doctrine is locatable in ancient tradition, and that the core consistency of such beliefs are evidence that Christianity was “originally given to us from heaven”.[11] Roman Catholics consider the teaching on purgatory to be part of the faith derived from the revelation of Jesus Christ that was preached by the apostles. Theologians and other Christians then developed the doctrine regarding purgatory over the centuries, leading to the definition of the formal doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter (as distinct from the legendary descriptions) at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), the Council of Florence (1438–1445), and the Council of Trent (1545–63).[1]

The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, first published in 2005, is a summary in dialog form of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It deals with purgatory in the following exchange:[44]
  1. What is purgatory?
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.
211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?
Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.
These two questions and answers summarize information in sections 1020–1032[45] and 1054[46] of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 1992, which also speaks of purgatory in sections 1472 and 1473[47]

Other authoritative statements are those of the Council of Trent in 1563[48] and the Council of Florence in 1439.[49]
 
I am not opposed to Catholic teaching in any way. I believe in purgatory. I believe in all Catholic doctrines. Apparently you have not read some of my other posts. Ignorance is bliss.

This thread started by stating that Protestants are nothing like the original Church. None are. You are free to believe what you choose about me. In playing “devils” advocate it stirred some real emotions.

It’s not nice to hear that we have all changed. But the fact is we have. Now…It’s time for me to pray the Rosary. You continue with your delusions.

Purgatory refers to a doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church which posits that those who die in a state of grace undergo a purification in order to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030).[1]
The Orthodox Church has neither explicitly recognized the term “purgatory” nor officially accepted such a state, which is distinct from the more general being “asleep in the Lord.” In his book entitled Why Do We Reject Purgatory?, Coptic Pope Shenouda III presents many theological and biblical arguments against Purgatory. For example, he refers to 1 Thess 4:16,17, “And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord”, in which Paul describes the Last Day saying that those faithful who are still alive will meet the Lord with those who rise from the dead and then remain with Him always, and wonders, “Are these faithful (alive on the Last Day) exempt from Purgatory? Or is God showing partiality towards them?”[2]
You have got to be kidding! I just disproved your ascertion by your own references and you tell me to continue with my delusions. You obviously have no interest in arriving at truth and are arguing just to hear your own head rattle. Get real.

You’re right. I haven’t read any of your other posts and now have no interest at all in doing so.
 
from New Advent

The teaching of the Fathers, and the formularies used in the Liturgy of the Church, found expression in the early Christian monuments, particularly those contained in the catacombs. On the tombs of the faithful were inscribed words of hope, words of petition for peace and for rest; and as the anniversaries came round the faithful gathered at the graves of the departed to make intercession for those who had gone before. At the bottom this is nothing else than the faith expressed by the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV, “De Purgatorio”), and to this faith the inscriptions in the catacombs are surely witnesses.

In the fourth century in the West, Ambrose insists in his commentary on St. Paul (1 Corinthians 3) on the existence of purgatory, and in his masterly funeral oration (De obitu Theodosii), thus prays for the soul of the departed emperor: “Give, O Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints. . . . I loved him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord, to which his deserts call him” (P.L., XVI, col. 1397). St. Augustine is clearer even than his master. He describes two conditions of men; “some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness” etc., and in the resurrection he says there will be some who “have gone through these pains, to which the spirits of the dead are liable” (City of God XXI.24). Thus at the close of the fourth century:
Code:
* not only were prayers for the dead found in all the Liturgies, but the Fathers asserted that such practice was from the Apostles themselves;
* those who were helped by the prayers of the faithful and by the celebration of the Holy Mysteries were in a place of purgation;
* from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord".
So clear is this patristic Tradition that those who do not believe in purgatory have been unable to bring any serious difficulties from the writings of the Fathers. The passages cited to the contrary either do not touch the question at all, or are so lacking in clearness that they cannot offset the perfectly open expression of the doctrine as found in the very Fathers who are quoted as holding contrary opinions (Bellarmine “De Purg.”, lib. I, cap. xiii).
 
from New Advent

The teaching of the Fathers, and the formularies used in the Liturgy of the Church, found expression in the early Christian monuments, particularly those contained in the catacombs. On the tombs of the faithful were inscribed words of hope, words of petition for peace and for rest; and as the anniversaries came round the faithful gathered at the graves of the departed to make intercession for those who had gone before. At the bottom this is nothing else than the faith expressed by the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV, “De Purgatorio”), and to this faith the inscriptions in the catacombs are surely witnesses.

In the fourth century in the West, Ambrose insists in his commentary on St. Paul (1 Corinthians 3) on the existence of purgatory, and in his masterly funeral oration (De obitu Theodosii), thus prays for the soul of the departed emperor: “Give, O Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints. . . . I loved him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord, to which his deserts call him” (P.L., XVI, col. 1397). St. Augustine is clearer even than his master. He describes two conditions of men; “some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness” etc., and in the resurrection he says there will be some who “have gone through these pains, to which the spirits of the dead are liable” (City of God XXI.24). Thus at the close of the fourth century:
Code:
* not only were prayers for the dead found in all the Liturgies, but the Fathers asserted that such practice was from the Apostles themselves;
* those who were helped by the prayers of the faithful and by the celebration of the Holy Mysteries were in a place of purgation;
* from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord".
So clear is this patristic Tradition that those who do not believe in purgatory have been unable to bring any serious difficulties from the writings of the Fathers. The passages cited to the contrary either do not touch the question at all, or are so lacking in clearness that they cannot offset the perfectly open expression of the doctrine as found in the very Fathers who are quoted as holding contrary opinions (Bellarmine “De Purg.”, lib. I, cap. xiii).
Nice!
 
A bold statement? Maybe you should investigate the beliefs of the Orthodox Church. You obviously are lacking in knowledge of their theology. THEY NEVER HAD A BELIEF IN PURGATION! THEY AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WERE ONE FOR 1000 YEARS. EDUCATE YOURSELF.
so, you do acknowledge that the CC is the Church of the Bible?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
 
You haven’t offered a bit of proof. If you can’t provide proof to someone who believes the same but is playing “devils” advocate…then who can you convince?
We can know a wolf no matte how much sheep skin they have on.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
 
No.

Yes, it has grown larger and different.

I’m simply illustrating a point. I’m not arguing about any core elements that remain, but has change occurred at all? Is the Catholic Church today completely and absolutely indistinguishable to the early church at all?
Good, i am glad we agree on this one.

your point is irrevelant to my questions.

which resembles the Church of the Bible? the CC or the protestants congregations?

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**
 
I am not talking about “being” the early church, but “resembling” the early church in any way at all.
what is the difference? please tell me.

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**
 
My comment was on Catholics treating Protestants NOT as Catholics themselves want to be treated, but as Catholics are treated. Revenge? Is that what this thread is about? You protestants prove you resemble the early church whether we Catholics can prove it or not?
do you believe that there is One Truth or many truths?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
 
You’ve warmed my home. Now could all of us warm each others hearts??? PPLLEEAASSEE?
dont worry, the fast you realize that there is One Truth, the faster your heart will be warm.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
 
We can know a wolf no matte how much sheep skin they have on.
JL: Aman. 👍

JL: You haven’t answered my question, Spn, this is the 5th time posted. If purgatory was not a teaching in the early Church as you posted, then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching. Never mind I see you did answer only in another line.
One of the things that you find with this forum…and probably most…is that when people have no answer to a question they simply continuouly ignore posts about it forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6232869&postcount=180 .
 
Thank you for your opinion.
do you think that this is my opinion?

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**
 
do you think that this is my opinion?

**
“without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” bxvi**
What are you referring to?
 
dont worry, the fast you realize that there is One Truth, the faster your heart will be warm.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI
You mean the CC?
 
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