So, i hear...

[wisdomseeker]

You mean the CC?

if there is One Truth, and you dont think your congregation is the one with the Truth, then you must continue to search until you find it.

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**

 

[Dokimas]

if there is One Truth, and you dont think your congregation is the one with the Truth, then you must continue to search until you find it.

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**

When a perosn is found by God, that person finds Truth. Jesus said HE, and He alone, is the Way, the Truth and the Live. No one can come to the Father but by Him and Him ALONE.

 

[wisdomseeker]

When a perosn is found by God, that person finds Truth. Jesus said HE, and He alone, is the Way, the Truth and the Live. No one can come to the Father but by Him and Him ALONE.

True. Jesus also said: “and thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against.”

St Paul inspired by the HS, the Spirit of Truth, said: the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth." do you think he was talking about a congregation that was formed 2000 yrs later by a man after he read the Bible?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[jlhargus]

As a Catholic convert from a non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church, this is my Scriptural reasons and understanding for becoming a member of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH the living body and presents of Christ on earth. That Church Christ is building from living stones. For emphases I added the CAPITAL WORDS. Sorry about the length, at one time it was one paragraph.

What the group, gathered and SENT by Christ, was called at any given time or place does not mater in the lest. What matters is continuity with that One SENT Fellowship. Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;

JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

Christ chose and prayed for one specific VISIBLE SENT group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, **the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world.

Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.

That’s the great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught, they were to go to ALL nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER,
Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.

[Lk22:29 And I APPOINT unto YOU A KINGDOM, AS MY FATHER hath APPOINTED unto ME; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. 31 And THE LORD SAID, Simon, SIMON, behold, SATAN HATH DESIRED TO HAVE YOU, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU AS WHEAT: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR **THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and WHEN thou art CONVERTED, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.

The apostles and to sit on thrones judging and eat and drink at Christ table in his kingdom. Catholics are gathered in union with our bishops around the table of the Lord where we eat and drink at every mass.

When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter.

JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” [THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood.

[Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ **DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.] Breaking of Bread is another term for mass. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

The sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable an ordained minister to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.

Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and **UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.]

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology.

[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

US would be the Church. The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority SENT by ChrisT. Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order,
[Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE **ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.] CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17.

I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead us in all truth, not hit and miss truth. To follow those, Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught. The Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace OF GOD given unto me BY the effectual WORKING OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWSHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places **MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,]

Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of David, of which Christ is now king, Peter is will be appointed Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the regenerated spiritual Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to **US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, SENT by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul went by revealation to verify his teachings with the ONE Fellowship, to be sure he was not running in vain. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the END of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.]

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, that tradition of men made a doctrine of God around 1520 AD.]

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Beautifully done.

thanks.

"We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God."
2Cor 4:2

 

[spn82756]

You have got to be kidding! I just disproved your ascertion by your own references and you tell me to continue with my delusions. You obviously have no interest in arriving at truth and are arguing just to hear your own head rattle. Get real.

You’re right. I haven’t read any of your other posts and now have no interest at all in doing so.

YOU DO HAVE AN PhD IN ARROGANCE!

---

BTW…PhD_in_Arrogance…stilll waiting for the Immaculate Conception…theology on Original Sin…and so on. Oh…and I’m sure the Mass is the same as it wasn 2000 years ago. NO CHURCH IS THE SAME AS 2000 YEARS AGO. Perhaps you will someday become a Christian and loose your arrogance.

 

[wisdomseeker]

True. 100% carbon copy of the early church, for example: language, clothing, culture, society, etc…

**
As a Catholic I’m simply playing devil’s advocate…**

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Right off the top of my head I would say, “Deaconesses, clothing, language.”

Would you say the post-Vatican II Holy Mass is 100% word for word what they used 2000 years ago?

When I say 100% I mean 100%

i guess you are. at first i thought what is he doing? but i realize, indeed you are playing the devil’s advocate. continue please.

**“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI **

 

[wisdomseeker]

YOU DO HAVE AN PhD IN ARROGANCE!

---

BTW…PhD_in_Arrogance…stilll waiting for the Immaculate Conception…theology on Original Sin…and so on. Oh…and I’m sure the Mass is the same as it wasn 2000 years ago. NO CHURCH IS THE SAME AS 2000 YEARS AGO. Perhaps you will someday become a Christian and loose your arrogance.

i did not see any arrogance on his statement.

if you look in the NT will see that somethings were beginning a new. the Apostles said that gentiles didnt need circuncision. we could pretty much do everything. why did the Apostles decided this way? as you can see as issues comes up, the Church is the one to decide the issue. did the gentiles believed in circuncision at the time? did the gentiles believed they had to eat whatever the Jews ate?

when you learn to see the differences between the Jews and the gentiles, the light will shine.

 

[spn82756]

i did not see any arrogance on his statement.

if you look in the NT will see that somethings were beginning a new. the Apostles said that gentiles didnt need circuncision. we could pretty much do everything. why did the Apostles decided this way? as you can see as issues comes up, the Church is the one to decide the issue. did the gentiles believed in circuncision at the time? did the gentiles believed they had to eat whatever the Jews ate?

when you learn to see the differences between the Jews and the gentiles, the light will shine.

Phd_In_Arrogance:

You’re right. I haven’t read any of your other posts and now have no interest at all in doing so.

He charged me with arrogance…when he is the arrogant one. All I did was turn the question around. The audacity to ask if Protestants resemble the original Church and then be offended by being asked the same question is striking.

I believe you will find that the Orthodox have changed the least in 2000 years. Again…Purgatory…the Immaculate Conception…theology on original sin. All different than WE (including myself) believe…but closer to what the early Church believes.

If that bothers a pompous PhD_In_Arrogance…then so be it.

When you study the differences between Catholicism and the Orthodox and what those differences are founded in…you will see the light.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

In fairness to Protestants, I don’t think that quote from the Letter of St, Clement, true or not, conveys to anyone the idea that this thread is likely to be conducted with love and charity.

I think you raise a good point. When I first read the title of this thread I said to myself - here we go again.

Let me say this… Catholics - Protestants - Insert Denomination Name Here - take a look at the log in your own eye.

I’d rather travel through this life with you - hand and hand - with our eyes on the Lord.

Thanks Nine_Two for pointing this out to me - my responses, thoughts, and questions need to be handled in love and charity. And for sure I have not always acted this way here.

 

[humblelurker]

Good, i am glad we agree on this one.

your point is irrevelant to my questions.

which resembles the Church of the Bible? the CC or the protestants congregations?

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**

Since my point is irrelevant to you then what is the point?
I am playing devil’s advocate in stating that no Christian Church today is a 100% perfect carbon copy of the early church. Now I’m not talking about the core elements alone mind you or the development of doctrine but in every single way, language, culture, society, technology, thoughts, history, people, problems, etc… I am setting up an impossible standard to achieve by anyone so that everyone will fall short of the glory, so to speak. Do Protestants have nothing at all that the early church had? No faith. No scriptures. What about Baptism? Nothing?
I will break character and tell you something personal:
Being the son of converts to Catholicism I look at it this way. Converts come into the Catholic Church and don’t completely loose faith. It is like a person who has been eating bread and drinking water all their lives then suddenly looks up and sees the table is filled with a cornucopia of the deposit of faith. Are we to deny them what little they have, or are we to help them understand there is more?
To answer your question on a personal note: Which do I personally believe resembles the Church of the Bible? The CC or the Protestants congregations? As a Catholic I say the CC, but that does not address my point. Now that I answered your question, will you now answer my questions?

 

[humblelurker]

what is the difference? please tell me.

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**

Resemble: to be like or similar to
Being would be
Should I have contrasted “being” and “Identical in every respect”?

 

[humblelurker]

do you believe that there is One Truth or many truths?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

One Truth, but that does not address my points.

 

[spn82756]

Since my point is irrelevant to you then what is the point?
I am playing devil’s advocate in stating that no Christian Church today is a 100% perfect carbon copy of the early church. Now I’m not talking about the core elements alone mind you or the development of doctrine but in every single way, language, culture, society, technology, thoughts, history, people, problems, etc… I am setting up an impossible standard to achieve by anyone so that everyone will fall short of the glory, so to speak. Do Protestants have nothing at all that the early church had? No faith. No scriptures. Nothing?
I will break character and tell you something personal:
Being the son of converts to Catholicism I look at it this way. Converts come into the Catholic Church and don’t completely loose faith. It is like a person who has been eating bread and drinking water all their lives then suddenly looks up and sees the table is filled with a cornucopia of the deposit of faith. Are we to deny them what little they have, or are we to help them understand there is more?
To answer your question on a personal note: Which do I personally believe resembles the Church of the Bible? The CC or the Protestants congregations? As a Catholic I say the CC, but that does not address my point. Now that I answered your question, will you now answer my questions?

Good luck on that one. As a Catholic that follows all of my Church’s teachings I’ve taken quite a beating because I turned the question around and asked that of Catholics. By doing that people become quite vile! Especially those with limited education…such as SteveVH. They figure it’s better to start a name calling game. Of course I am guilty of allowing myself to participate in it.

When I see posts indicating the Mass is the same now as it was 2000 years ago…I get a real chuckle.

1. What is the Latin Mass?
The Latin Mass is often called the Tridentine Latin Mass, a reference to the fact that it was codified by Pope St. Pius V shortly after the Council of Trent (1545-1563), from which is derived the term “Tridentine.” Contrary to what some people think, Pope St. Pius V did not issue a new Mass but simply unified the already existing liturgy. His Quo Primum decree not only declared that this Mass was to remain unchanged for all time, but it forbade the introduction of new Mass liturgies. The Latin Mass itself can rightly be called the Mass of the Apostles since it dates back to the time of Our Lord and the Apostles. Remnants of early liturgies parallel the Tridentine Latin Mass in its essential details.

Now…the Norvus Ordo is not the same as the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass has different prayers. Prayers for conversion of the Jews. Different Eucharistic Prayer. Different styles. Even the direction the priest faces is a major stumbling block for Traditional Catholics in the Norvus Ordo. Communion on the tongue only and of 1 Species only. On your knees at the alter rail.

Talk to SSPX or other followers of the Latin Mass and you will find a great deal of dislike toward the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo is so different than the Latin Mass that SSPX and many that attend the Latin Mass do not consider attending the Novus Ordo to be fulfilling the Sunday requirement. EVEN the idea of a vigil Mass is ridiculed by SSPX as against early Catholic teaching. There are many more differences…but don’t tell SteveVH (the arrogant) that because he will tell you you are lost.

Isn’t his arrogance bliss?

 

[spn82756]

One Truth, but that does not address my points.

…and he won’t!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Good luck on that one. As a Catholic that follows all of my Church’s teachings I’ve taken quite a beating because I turned the question around and asked that of Catholics. By doing that people become quite vile! Especially those with limited education…such as SteveVH. They figure it’s better to start a name calling game. Of course I am guilty of allowing myself to participate in it.

When I see posts indicating the Mass is the same now as it was 2000 years ago…I get a real chuckle.

1. What is the Latin Mass?
The Latin Mass is often called the Tridentine Latin Mass, a reference to the fact that it was codified by Pope St. Pius V shortly after the Council of Trent (1545-1563), from which is derived the term “Tridentine.” Contrary to what some people think, Pope St. Pius V did not issue a new Mass but simply unified the already existing liturgy. His Quo Primum decree not only declared that this Mass was to remain unchanged for all time, but it forbade the introduction of new Mass liturgies. The Latin Mass itself can rightly be called the Mass of the Apostles since it dates back to the time of Our Lord and the Apostles. Remnants of early liturgies parallel the Tridentine Latin Mass in its essential details.

Now…the Norvus Ordo is not the same as the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass has different prayers. Prayers for conversion of the Jews. Different Eucharistic Prayer. Different styles. Even the direction the priest faces is a major stumbling block for Traditional Catholics in the Norvus Ordo. Communion on the tongue only and of 1 Species only. On your knees at the alter rail.

**Talk to SSPX or other followers of the Latin Mass and you will find a great deal of dislike toward the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo is so different than the Latin Mass that SSPX and many that attend the Latin Mass do not consider attending the Novus Ordo to be fulfilling the Sunday requirement. EVEN the idea of a vigil Mass is ridiculed by SSPX as against early Catholic teaching. There are many more differences…but don’t tell SteveVH **(the arrogant) that because he will tell you you are lost.

Isn’t his arrogance bliss?

:tsktsk:

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

 

[spn82756]

:tsktsk:

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Yep…but unfortunately when a faithful Catholic (and I am) challenges other Catholics in the same way those other Catholics have challenged non-Catholics…the love seems to end and animosity catches on. Perhaps you could read some post by SteveVH.