So I left...

[Miserys_Fence]

Let me clarify:
She has endured bad acts. Abuse. They don’t deserve to be excused. That is not what forgiveness means.

I see I need to clarify what I mean by “absolutely no way not going to happen impossible”. I don’t mean her marriage is over, necessarily. I mean that she should not buy the “come back, I’ll be better” line. He needs to be better, then she can think about coming back. That is going to take a lot of joint therapy (or the equivalent) to demonstrate, and he’s not signed on for a minute of that yet. Her immediate return ought not be even on the table.

By referring to the change he needs to make as a miracle, I mean that it is extremely rare for someone who habitually belittles his wife to the point described, who blames her and makes excuses for himself, is going to change that habit. I will take it back if we are talking about isolated incidents for which he apologized and made no excuses, if he just occasionally falls back into scripts he heard growing up but that are not normally part of how he is, but I don’t think that is what she’s describing. It could be, though. That’s why she has a therapist, to ask these questions.

If she is describing someone who has a manipulative personality, then it is extremely unlikely that he’s going to change. The burden is on him to demonstrate that he has another habitual way of doing things. What she’s going to get instead is entreaties from him that *she *do part of the work of bringing him back. I’m not just saying that it would be unfair for him to use guilt to get her back to hazard another day on the old firing range of his abusive habits. I mean that it just won’t work. A return to the status quo will not give him reason enough to change. If there is no reason to change, a big reason, there will be no change. If he has a sociopathic personality (and you would be astonished to know how many people do), then that change is extremely unlikely to happen, reason or no reason. She’d be returning to abuse which has no chance of ever changing. That’s not a valid marriage, but even if it were, the Church wouldn’t require her to live in it. She deserves to live in peace.

If the marriage is going to survive, he needs to know that the abusive behavior must stop, period, not as evidenced by promises, but as evidenced by action, and that she is not going to even *consider *coming back until it is clear that this has happened. Yet I would bet my last dollar that he will try to make her feel guilty for not “giving him another chance.” She absolutely must not let him do that, if there is any hope of coming out of this with a healthy marriage.

We are not talking about two people with normal marital problems. This is a mental health issue. It is as serious as physical abuse, and that is not a situation of “it takes two to tango.” She should know that she is right to see through and deny the guilt trips he is going to throw at her to cloud that. She needs to stand up for clear evidence that she can realistically expect to return to an abuse-free home, or else not go home at all. She also needs to know very clearly that if she insists he change before her return and he tells her that she is throwing away their marriage, the guilt belongs on him, not her. Yet if he is a sociopath, he is incapable of doing anything but pretending guilt. He would be an expert at using it on others, though.

IOW, she is in a lot of emotional danger when she’s around him. She needs to be ready.

Speaking of…OP, if you have not read “The Sociopath Next Door”, by Martha Stout, you may want to read it. Ask your therapist about that, though. You have a professional taking care of you. Let the professional do this job.

Fantastic post, EasterJoy!

Miz

 

[ElizaCatherine]

Thanks everyone for your encouragement. I appreciate everyone’s perspectives. Several of you have pointed out things that I hadn’t thought of. I know I have a lot of work and healing ahead of me. I am very hard on myself. I have always struggled with that, and that is something I am working on.

Thanks to all for your prayers. I know they will help. I have been praying about this for a long time. I am trying so hard not to dwell on all of this, but it is truly front of me all the time. I try to stay busy, but I also think I need to spend some time on it. I just get frustrated because it takes over. I get very distracted at work and catch myself in tears. I hope that part gets easier.

 

[ElizaCatherine]

As of this morning I’ve decided to block his email from getting to my work address. He sent another email that shows he just doesn’t get what is going on. He wants me to meet him so he basically can court me. He says we can work on our other issues later. There will be no later if we don’t resolve “our” issues. I can see that this is way deeper than I thought it might be. EasterJoy’s points are well taken about this being a mental health issue. Every time I think I can give him a little slack he proves he can’t handle it.

The messages are full of things that are contradictory. The latest one starts out with business (which is also weird in itself) and then launches into this thing about how we can work out our issues later. I really don’t get it.

 

[JRKH]

As of this morning I’ve decided to block his email from getting to my work address. He sent another email that shows he just doesn’t get what is going on. He wants me to meet him so he basically can court me. He says we can work on our other issues later. There will be no later if we don’t resolve “our” issues. I can see that this is way deeper than I thought it might be. EasterJoy’s points are well taken about this being a mental health issue. Every time I think I can give him a little slack he proves he can’t handle it.

The messages are full of things that are contradictory. The latest one starts out with business (which is also weird in itself) and then launches into this thing about how we can work out our issues later. I really don’t get it.

This is a good example of how the seperation is allowing you to see the contradictions in his behavior. Stick to your guns on this.

As to the matter of “courting” my response would be something to the effect that you would not date a person with the character flaws he presents. So dating, or courting, at this point is out of the question.

Peace
James

 

[Serap]

When you describe your husband, it’s a lot like my father. I could never be married to someone like my father. It would be a nightmare.

Separation is good to clear all the confusion and really figure out what’s going on. You may realize that you guys can try and work things out or you’ll realize that he is not ever going to be healthy for you and you must move on.

This can be discerned with much faith and prayer. Even the worst of situations can be made better with faith, hard work and prayer.

My only advice to you is don’t rush into reconsiliation OR divorce right now. Just focus on figuring things out and only make your move when you are 100% sure.

 

[jmcrae]

As of this morning I’ve decided to block his email from getting to my work address.

Good, smart girl!

He sent another email that shows he just doesn’t get what is going on. He wants me to meet him so he basically can court me. He says we can work on our other issues later. There will be no later if we don’t resolve “our” issues. I can see that this is way deeper than I thought it might be. EasterJoy’s points are well taken about this being a mental health issue. Every time I think I can give him a little slack he proves he can’t handle it.

Don’t reply to the e-mail. Save it, though. Create a paper trail of every note he ever sends you, so that when the time comes, you can use it as evidence of his instability.

I heard of a case very similiar to this, where a woman was being stalked by her husband through e-mail. She printed out all of the e-mails he’d sent her and brought them to the Tribunal, and she was immediately granted a Declaration of Nullity, since it was obvious to them that the guy had no concept of the meaning of marriage.

The messages are full of things that are contradictory. The latest one starts out with business (which is also weird in itself) and then launches into this thing about how we can work out our issues later. I really don’t get it.

You wouldn’t let your daughter date a guy who was behaving like this - so you don’t need to, either.

 

[horselvr]

ElizaCatherine:

You are an amazing woman. After being under a belittling and controlling husband you just up and left and got into therapy, and blocked his e-mails, going to work and making it through. You are a lot stronger than you thought you were. Heck, you are a lot stronger than he even thought you were. He probably can’t get out of bed.

You have thrown this guy for a loop. He thought he had complete and utter control of you and now he finds out that he didn’t. That you have seriously had it with being treated less than human and certainly not like a wife should be treated.

You, actually, are sitting in the cat bird seat and for once are able to call the shots. Stick to your guns about him going to counciling for a substancial amount of time. Then re-evaluate. Think it through. You may or may not want to try again after you both have had some help for quite sometime.

Stick to your guns–he has to know you mean business. Prayers to you.

 

[JRKH]

Just want to pop in with one caveat concerning the wonderful and encouraging posts to the OP.

Let’s all remember that Love and Christian Charity must underly everything.

Eliza got out of a bad situation that would not get any better if she satyed. Now she must get herself straightened out and insist that her husband get himself straightened out.
WHY?
Because that is the Loving and Christian thing to do. He was not demonstrating Christ in their relationship and, though we cannot be sure, she may not have been demonstrating Christ very well either.

Clearly each one needs to desire to improve and demonstrate that desire clearly. Each must desire the ultimate good for the other - that the other achieve heaven.

I’m not saying that anyone has posted in uncharitable ways - Not my point at all.
Just thought that perhaps we could all use a reminder that Heaven is the goal and Love (sometimes tough Love) is the path.

Peace
James

 

[Serap]

ElizaCatherine:

You are an amazing woman. After being under a belittling and controlling husband you just up and left and got into therapy, and blocked his e-mails, going to work and making it through. You are a lot stronger than you thought you were. Heck, you are a lot stronger than he even thought you were. He probably can’t get out of bed.

You have thrown this guy for a loop. He thought he had complete and utter control of you and now he finds out that he didn’t. That you have seriously had it with being treated less than human and certainly not like a wife should be treated.

You, actually, are sitting in the cat bird seat and for once are able to call the shots. Stick to your guns about him going to counciling for a substancial amount of time. Then re-evaluate. Think it through. You may or may not want to try again after you both have had some help for quite sometime.

Stick to your guns–he has to know you mean business. Prayers to you.

read this when you are feeling weak and unsure of yourself!!!

 

[St_Francis]

… I wonder if I would have tried harder to do things the way he wanted them done if things would have been different…

This is a really bad way to think. It is not your job to do everything the way he wants it done, all that leads to is your being all tied up in knots trying to everything just right.

I hope the two of you will be able to work things out, but it sounds like it was a really bad dynamic, not to type that a marriage should be based on.

 

[Trinity117]

My dear sister,

I answer too many of these threads and it just makes me so sad. I was married to an abusive man many years ago. I see a lot of “we don’t know both sides” and “how do we know what has transpired” responses and I am here to tell you one thing right here and now. Once you have been the “abused”, you NEVER forget what it sounded like. . . and I am out of that marriage almost 30 years now. The warning signs light up in my head and the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I hear those warning bells in that little bit of your story. I have seen them, and you face a very real threat.

Having said that, I will pray for your peace of mind. Any time you have been in a relationship and heard the same thing over and over, you start to believe it. It’s YOUR fault, you are worthless, you are stupid, nobody else will ever want you . . . all lies and tricks. Ways to keep you subjugated. You have stepped into the light now. It hurts your eyes at first. You think that it was SAFER in the dark. Not true. . . you did the right thing. Don’t ever think you are unworthy. Don’t ever believe that anyone DESERVES abuse. You do not. . . I didn’t either. But out minds tell us otherwise. Stay away from him and continue with therapy. If you feel physically threatened go for help IMMEDIATELY. Don’t wait. I will pray for you and for your husband that he can see what path God intends for him. . . I suspect he doesn’t know who is directing him right now. You pray, too. Pray hard and as much as you can. God can do ANYTHING. God Bless you, my sister. Be strong.

Peace

 

[Serap]

My dear sister,

I answer too many of these threads and it just makes me so sad. I was married to an abusive man many years ago. I see a lot of “we don’t know both sides” and “how do we know what has transpired” responses and I am here to tell you one thing right here and now. Once you have been the “abused”, you NEVER forget what it sounded like. . . and I am out of that marriage almost 30 years now. The warning signs light up in my head and the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I hear those warning bells in that little bit of your story. I have seen them, and you face a very real threat.

Having said that, I will pray for your peace of mind. Any time you have been in a relationship and heard the same thing over and over, you start to believe it. It’s YOUR fault, you are worthless, you are stupid, nobody else will ever want you . . . all lies and tricks. Ways to keep you subjugated. You have stepped into the light now. It hurts your eyes at first. You think that it was SAFER in the dark. Not true. . . you did the right thing. Don’t ever think you are unworthy. Don’t ever believe that anyone DESERVES abuse. You do not. . . I didn’t either. But out minds tell us otherwise. Stay away from him and continue with therapy. If you feel physically threatened go for help IMMEDIATELY. Don’t wait. I will pray for you and for your husband that he can see what path God intends for him. . . I suspect he doesn’t know who is directing him right now. You pray, too. Pray hard and as much as you can. God can do ANYTHING. God Bless you, my sister. Be strong.

Peace

I’m hoping that there IS a chance of reconciliation after extensive therapy for the sake of their marriage, espcially if they have children.

I believe that even the worst of problems can be solved with hard work, faith and more hard work. Both people have to be willing to do it though.

 

[horselvr]

“I believe that even the worst of problems can be solved with hard work, faith and more hard work. **Both people have to be willing to do it though.” **

And therein lies the rub.

It seems to me that men that are he** bent on contolling their families through any means, including physical and emotional abuse and intimidation have a very hard time letting go of that behavior. They may be on their best behavior for awhile but in no time it seems they are right back to controlling everyone in the family through whatever means necessary.

I think it is difficult for this sort of man to become the kind of husband needed in a marriage. They seem to have a need to step on the wife’s neck and keep her underfoot as if to elevate themselves.

Both would have to be in counciling for a considerable amount of time before any amends could be made.

Sometimes, believe it or not, separating and divorcing is the only option.

 

[Viki63]

Dear ElizaCatherine,
I have been where you are, many years ago, and I am so sorry you have to go through it.
I also felt guilt, anxiety, distress, wondering constantly whether I had made the right decisions, having a hard time sleeping or thinking about anything else.
You will get through this, and out the other side, especially as you are relying on God to lead you. You have done the right things. Just keep doing the best you can, as you are, and you will be fine. You will look back on this time and be glad it’s over, but also glad you went through it, as you will be able to sympathize with other women in these situations.

" For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” Jer 29:11.

 

[Serap]

“I believe that even the worst of problems can be solved with hard work, faith and more hard work. **Both people have to be willing to do it though.” **

And therein lies the rub.

It seems to me that men that are he** bent on contolling their families through any means, including physical and emotional abuse and intimidation have a very hard time letting go of that behavior. They may be on their best behavior for awhile but in no time it seems they are right back to controlling everyone in the family through whatever means necessary.

I think it is difficult for this sort of man to become the kind of husband needed in a marriage. They seem to have a need to step on the wife’s neck and keep her underfoot as if to elevate themselves.

Both would have to be in counciling for a considerable amount of time before any amends could be made.

Sometimes, believe it or not, separating and divorcing is the only option.

True. It was the only solution for my father as he is a total jerk.

 

[agnes_therese]

As of this morning I’ve decided to block his email from getting to my work address. He sent another email that shows he just doesn’t get what is going on. He wants me to meet him so he basically can court me. He says we can work on our other issues later. There will be no later if we don’t resolve “our” issues. I can see that this is way deeper than I thought it might be. EasterJoy’s points are well taken about this being a mental health issue. Every time I think I can give him a little slack he proves he can’t handle it.

The messages are full of things that are contradictory. The latest one starts out with business (which is also weird in itself) and then launches into this thing about how we can work out our issues later. I really don’t get it.

I believe you are doing the right thing. You need space and time for your own therapy, without him harassing and/or confusing you. And if you let him say “later” – “later” will never come. Never.

Praying for God’s comfort and blessings for you.

 

[EasterJoy]

He sent another email that shows he just doesn’t get what is going on. He wants me to meet him so he basically can court me. He says we can work on our other issues later…

The messages are full of things that are contradictory. The latest one starts out with business (which is also weird in itself) and then launches into this thing about how we can work out our issues later. I really don’t get it.

It is entirely possible that he grew up in an abusive environment, such that he really does not even have the capacity to imagine what a healthy marriage looks like. He may have grown up with emotional abuse of one parent on another, or mutual abuse. He may have been emotionally abused as a child. If he is abusing addictive substances, that will also warp a person’s sense of reality. Persons in those situations think in self-contradictory ways, and don’t see it. When what you know doesn’t make sense, you just write it off as one of those paradoxes of life.

Unhealthy relationships aren’t just relationships that don’t happen to be culturally “in style”. They are relationships built on intrinsically unrealistic expectations: that abuse can result in peace and mutual affection, that one person in a family can be truly happy by manipulating and intimidating everyone else, that resignation and mute endurance is the only “Christian” response for the family member who is put into a de-valued position, and so on.

So while you may learn to have pity for his way of looking at things, while you may be able to believe he did not mean or was oblivious to the extent of the harm he caused, you cannot turn off the emotional laws of physics and be happy in the relationship he is offering. It can be pretended, but it can’t actually happen.

Either he has to wake up about the laws of human nature and learn how to live according to them, or your marriage is over.

Now, I will answer the “let’s be fair” objections: If there are ways in which you manipulate or abuse him, of course those have to change, too. If there are “two sides” to this story, though, it still wouldn’t ever boil down to a matter of calling a foul on both sides and doing the play over. Nobody deserves what you got. Even if you were “giving out as good as you were getting,” that couldn’t work. This goes outside what can admittedly be kind of rough-and-tumble boundaries of true marital love. What you described is outside what God intends for marriage to be. You need to heal from the injuries done to your soul and the foundations of the relationship need to be fixed. Otherwise, someone is going to get even more seriously injured than you already have.

I have a saying: Even the Easter Bunny will bite you, if you put it in a cage and poke with a stick enough times. We can never assume that living with violence won’t have any bad effect on us. You did well to get help before your fear of your husband turned to hatred. It happens. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the phrase, “Is there a jury in the world that would convict her?” Sometimes, no. Wouldn’t it still have been miles better to get the wife out before it ever came to that?

 

[Trinity117]

Now, I will answer the “let’s be fair” objections: If there are ways in which you manipulate or abuse him, of course those have to change, too. If there are “two sides” to this story, though, it still wouldn’t ever boil down to a matter of calling a foul on both sides and doing the play over. Nobody deserves what you got. Even if you were “giving out as good as you were getting,” that couldn’t work. This goes outside what can admittedly be kind of rough-and-tumble boundaries of true marital love. What you described is outside what God intends for marriage to be. You need to heal from the injuries done to your soul and the foundations of the relationship need to be fixed. Otherwise, someone is going to get even more seriously injured than you already have.

I have a saying: Even the Easter Bunny will bite you, if you put it in a cage and poke with a stick enough times. We can never assume that living with violence won’t have any bad effect on us. You did well to get help before your fear of your husband turned to hatred. It happens. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the phrase, “Is there a jury in the world that would convict her?” Sometimes, no. Wouldn’t it still have been miles better to get the wife out before it ever came to that?

Amen, EasterJoy. . . very well stated. I am constantly alarmed by responses posted that basically say, “Well, yeah, abuse is bad. . . but your situation isn’t THAT bad.” How can anyone advise anyone to stay in a situation that is physically, emotionally and mentally dangerous?

 

[ElizaCatherine]

Amen, EasterJoy. . . very well stated. I am constantly alarmed by responses posted that basically say, “Well, yeah, abuse is bad. . . but your situation isn’t THAT bad.” How can anyone advise anyone to stay in a situation that is physically, emotionally and mentally dangerous?

And that is just the problem. I ask myself if it was really that bad every day. Now that I am out of the situation, I find myself missing him. I know it is unhealthy. I don’t know if he’s really going to counseling. I don’t know if he will ever understand the kind of anxiety and fear I felt every day (and really still do). I am trying to move forward, but right now that is extremely difficult. My whole life is upside down, and I am sad and angry. Not to mention the other things I cycle in and out of. I know he still has some hold on me. He still trys to make me feel guilty when I won’t see him. Apparently our marriage and us dating each other are mutually exclusive.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and prayers. This is a tremendously trying situation. I don’t know if I have ever had the kind of emotional upheaval that I am experiencing right now. God bless you all!

 

[Serap]

And that is just the problem. I ask myself if it was really that bad every day. Now that I am out of the situation, I find myself missing him. I know it is unhealthy. I don’t know if he’s really going to counseling. I don’t know if he will ever understand the kind of anxiety and fear I felt every day (and really still do). I am trying to move forward, but right now that is extremely difficult. My whole life is upside down, and I am sad and angry. Not to mention the other things I cycle in and out of. I know he still has some hold on me. He still trys to make me feel guilty when I won’t see him. Apparently our marriage and us dating each other are mutually exclusive.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and prayers. This is a tremendously trying situation. I don’t know if I have ever had the kind of emotional upheaval that I am experiencing right now. God bless you all!

Until the fog has cleared - DON"T go back to him. Please wait until you have a better understanding of everything!!! Don’t let him manipulate you into going back before YOU are ready IF you decide to go back to him. You are holding all the cards.