So I see this in the "Ask an Apologist" thread

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agname

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“Can prayers go backward or foreward in time? That is, if I pray for Columbus to find America before his voyage in 1492, will my prayers be effective?”

So…I’m sitting here thinking…“how” and “why” are you going to pray for Columbus to find America before his voyage in 1492? We all know he found America. Is there a time machine involved? Do you plan on going back in time…and then asking for this special petition? Yes, I believe every prayer glorifies God in some way…therefore…it’s not in vain…but, this is a tad ridiculous. God is outside of time…but the earth (his creation) isn’t. A prayer in regards to a past event will not alter history.

I suppose tonight I should make a special petition…that the first Crusade to be successful…wait it already has been. 😉
 
You can pray for Jesus where he’s having agony in the Gethsemanee.

According to Emmerich’s book “Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ” He was comforted by vision of the future Saints in Heaven (Emmerich also mentioned Popes).
 
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beng:
You can pray for Jesus where he’s having agony in the Gethsemanee.

According to Emmerich’s book “Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ” He was comforted by vision of the future Saints in Heaven (Emmerich also mentioned Popes).
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Yes, one can meditate upon the Passion…and what Jesus suffered. Also…The Dolorous Passion is private revelation…it is suspected Brentano fabricated material attributed to her. There is no doubt she was a holy woman. Finally, the vision…was showing what is he was going to accomplish…opening the gates of Heaven, etc. He also knew the sins of the future.
 
I just finally understood this issue, thanks to an author named John Downs, who wrote a book called “Why” regarding his life as a quadraplegic for over 40 years. In writing this book he would jump from a past experience to a future one, and one particular time when doing this, he asked all who were reading this book to pray for a friend of his going through a difficult time.

He went on to explain that while we may be reading this excerpt many years in advance of his friend’s need, that **God would anticipate our prayers and apply them at the time they were needed! ** I thought to myself, “Of course He knows, He is God!” (DUH!) :banghead:

This brought me great comfort when a cousin of mine committed suicide a few weeks back. I could pray for her **at the time of her death ** that she called out to Jesus at her last moments, and that Mary and the saints would have been there praying for her as well. Wow! Is that awesome or what?!

Sometimes we forget that God is outside of our understanding of time and space, that He is our All-Knowing, All-Powerful Master.
 
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Didi:
I just finally understood this issue, thanks to an author named John Downs, who wrote a book called “Why” regarding his life as a quadraplegic for over 40 years. In writing this book he would jump from a past experience to a future one, and one particular time when doing this, he asked all who were reading this book to pray for a friend of his going through a difficult time.

He went on to explain that while we may be reading this excerpt many years in advance of his friend’s need, that **God would anticipate our prayers and apply them at the time they were needed! ** I thought to myself, “Of course He knows, He is God!” (DUH!) :banghead:

This brought me great comfort when a cousin of mine committed suicide a few weeks back. I could pray for her **at the time of her death ** that she called out to Jesus at her last moments, and that Mary and the saints would have been there praying for her as well. Wow! Is that awesome or what?!

Sometimes we forget that God is outside of our understanding of time and space, that He is our All-Knowing, All-Powerful Master.
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I disagree with John Down.

But, I will also keep your cousin in my thoughts…God is merciful…take care.
 
What is so amazing to me, is that we can do so much more than just keep someone in our thoughts. We have the ability, no wait – the gift, of being able pray for those who have died, especially those who are dear to us or who die tragically. To simply think, “Oh, they’re gone now, there’s nothing else we can do,” is tragic in itself. God knew that we would need to continue a connection with our brothers and sisters even after death, so of course we can pray for them, and ask them to pray for us!
 
Praying for past events is not as unordinary as you may think. Think about it: if you pray for your friends and relatives after they die, you may be praying for a past event. Prayers for relatives in heaven and hell are not needed. You cannot affect a judgment of hell once it has been pronounced, and once the soul reaches heaven, your prayers are nice but not necessary. But we don’t know if Aunt Betsy went straight to heaven, so we pray for her. Any prayers I pray today for someone in heaven now will still be heard by God. My prayer today may have helped reduce Purgatorial “time” back when Aunt Betsy was in Purgatory.

God operates outside the constraints of time with each Mass, when the once and for all Sacrifice is re-presented on the altar.
 
We can only pray for certain past events to happen or not happen when we don’t know the outcome. For example my brother was in an accident several years ago and my family was praying for him to be all right even though he could have been dead for all we knew. Our prayers do and can transcend time because prayer exists outside of time because the one we pray to exists outside of time, but it would have been different if my family had known the outcome of the accident and then prayed. Knowing the outcome makes all the difference. If we were to pray for something we already know the outcome to, our prayers would just be an expression of pride because it would enforce the idea that I can will something when clearly God’s will is working against me.
 
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Didi:
What is so amazing to me, is that we can do so much more than just keep someone in our thoughts. We have the ability, no wait – the gift, of being able pray for those who have died, especially those who are dear to us or who die tragically. To simply think, “Oh, they’re gone now, there’s nothing else we can do,” is tragic in itself. God knew that we would need to continue a connection with our brothers and sisters even after death, so of course we can pray for them, and ask them to pray for us!
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You do realize that to “keep someone in our thoughts” was used as a figure of speech, correct?

Indeed, we can pray for the souls in Purgatory and ask for the intercession of those in Heaven.
 
gomer tree:
Praying for past events is not as unordinary as you may think. Think about it: if you pray for your friends and relatives after they die, you may be praying for a past event. Prayers for relatives in heaven and hell are not needed. You cannot affect a judgment of hell once it has been pronounced, and once the soul reaches heaven, your prayers are nice but not necessary. But we don’t know if Aunt Betsy went straight to heaven, so we pray for her. Any prayers I pray today for someone in heaven now will still be heard by God. My prayer today may have helped reduce Purgatorial “time” back when Aunt Betsy was in Purgatory.

God operates outside the constraints of time with each Mass, when the once and for all Sacrifice is re-presented on the altar.
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You can not specifically pray for a past event…it’s already taken place. You can meditate on past events…and pray for souls that maybe in Purgatory. God is infinite…etc…but this world is not. This world is linear…and time is finite.
 
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Nikki:
We can only pray for certain past events to happen or not happen when we don’t know the outcome. For example my brother was in an accident several years ago and my family was praying for him to be all right even though he could have been dead for all we knew. Our prayers do and can transcend time because prayer exists outside of time because the one we pray to exists outside of time, but it would have been different if my family had known the outcome of the accident and then prayed. Knowing the outcome makes all the difference. If we were to pray for something we already know the outcome to, our prayers would just be an expression of pride because it would enforce the idea that I can will something when clearly God’s will is working against me.
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To pray for past events to happen is not possible…because they’ve already taken place. It’s impossible.

You can pray for an individual…if you don’t know of their fate (for instance, their protection – in case they’re alive)…or…if they’re dead…that they might be delivered from Purgatory.
 
There may be a debate on semantics here, but I dispute that you cannot pray for a past event. I think it is a great point that if the event is known, it is unchangeable, and you cannot pray for a change in history. So, the example of Columbus seems a little odd, depending on what those prayers are for.

But suppose I thought my wife was traveling starting at 4:00 pm. At 4:00 pm I pray for her safe travel. As I finish my prayer, she pulls into the driveway, because she was able to leave 3 hours early. I am quite confident that God has anticipated my prayer and that the prayer did not only apply to the last minute of her drive.

My intention was not to change history, it was to petition God regarding something I thought was about to happen, but in actuality had already occurred.
 
We can either pray for past events or we cannot. I too, was struck by this question on the “Ask the Apologist” thread and have been thinking about this quite a bit.

If we can’t, case closed, mystery solved. But if we can, I propose a radically way that this might be handled (my best guess).

Let me start of by noting a difficulty I am having with two examples posted in this thread.

First the example was given of a person praying for their relative at the time of their suicide. Next was the example of the husband praying for his wife to get home safe (even though she was home by the time he was done praying). In both of these examples, we have “tied God’s hands” insofar as what outcomes we’ve allowed Him. We do not allow Him the opportunity to prevent the suicide, and we do not allow Him the opportunity to not have the wife arrive home safely.

If God can anticipate prayers, then we are already experiencing the best outcome. That is, at best, we are praying for an event whose outcome has already benefitted from our prayers. Unless…

What if God is re-writing History EVERY INSTANT. What if the first time, Columbus did discover the new world in 1493, but prayers have changed this to 1492, and instantly all of history (every thought, memory, book, reference) was changed into thinking that Columbus discovered the new world in 1492.

In this case, you could pray for a friend’s death, and maybe the next instant you would have ALWAYS THOUGHT that your friend never committed suicide.

Just some thoughts…

Why I must be wrong on at least some points…once a person has died, their soul is no longer part of the material universe. Time is only part of the material universe and purgatory (being temporal punishment and all). When a soul leaves time, there is a particular judgement, and that souls fate is determined forever – no prayers benefit a soul in heaven or hell. In any case, a prayer cannot help retroactively change someone’s fate from damnation to salvation…

Thanks for your time.
 
I cannot pray to change known facts. I can pray that God allow things to be a certain way. Imagine someone you think might not make it to purgatory. If you pray that they get grace to accept God before their death, they may be saved. What if they already died? Do it anyway. The Blessed Mother said that many souls are doomed because no one prays for them. Who is to say that this is impossible for God? He is outside of time. I know of a woman who had four sons go to WWII. She prayed every day that they come back alive, and when they did, she thanked God everyday with her prayers (including many roseries). I truely beleive that the after prayers had as much to do with it as the before.
 
Can prayers go backward in time? God of course is not limited by time. So yes, I would say that prayers are not limited by time either.

I remember once reading about a particular king whose life was full of crimes and cruelties. Yet in his will he left a huge sum of money for the purpose of having Masses offered for his soul. That struck me as the heighth of presumption, assuming that by this method he might escape his just punishment.

But on further reflection, I began to think, well, what was the effect of all those Masses offered for him for many years after his death? Since God is not limited by time, the graces thereby obtained could very well have impacted this king at the very moment of his death, or in his last agony, impelling him to a fervent repentence that would have been beneficial. Perhaps it was even these graces that made him consider providing for the Mass offerings. I figure he still had a lot of purgation to work through, but I’m equally sure the Masses were not wasted.

JimG
 
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