So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

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I find it curious that “bible christians” discount the Bible.

St. Peter clearly states: “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” [Acts 2:38]
We don’t discount that at all. In fact, we preach and teach on it all the time.

We just understand it different than you.

Last year, we had a party** for my brother in law’s fiftieth birthday. So, when we say that we had a party* for ***his birthday, does that mean that it was necessary for us to have a party in order for him to turn fifty? Or does it mean that we commemorated his birthday with a party?

Same here.“baptized for the remission of sins” means to commemorate the remission of sins we’ve already received as the result of our regeneration and salvation.
and “Baptism…now saves you.”[1Pe3:21]
Why did you choose to omit so much from that passage?

Here is how it should be rendered:

1 Peter 3:18-22 - 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20becausee they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Changes the meaning quite a bit when somebody quote it in context for you, doesn’t it?
St. Paul, also:
Titus 3:5: “[H]e saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”

1 Corinthians 6:11: “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
Romans 6:3–4: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
What do any of these have to do with baptism?
Mr 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
So, how can you say that baptism is required for salvation when the verse doesn’t say that one is not baptized is condemned, but one who does not believe?
See the double-conditional there? It says that there are TWO conditions to be saved.
The problem is that it doesn’t say that a lack of baptism will condemn, only a lack of faith.
 
That is not to say that both of us are right. It’s just to say that we’re all making determinations on trust. You tell me I have a problem because my church doesn’t have a magisterium, and I simply have to wade through the morass of doctrine on my own encountering many dangers and traps and delusion. But in the end of the day, you have to do the same thing. You just choose to give that responsibility to the Catholic Church and submit to its determinations. You’re still operating on trust–trust that Jesus Christ personally established the Catholic Church and personally made the Pope his Vicar on earth. What if you’re wrong???** I trust in Jesus Christ and his Word illuminated by the Holy Spirit**.
All of the above is true, although I have to add: you also trust in the Catholic Church, for it is the CC which discerned for you and me what his (written) Word was.

You would not know any other way.

And you therefore trust that she got it right in including Revelation but excluding the Epistle of Barnabas.
 
I agree with you, but did Jesus really establish a “Catholic Church” and if so, aren’t we in it?

I have troubles finding words like Catholic and Eucharist in the Bible; not because they’re not there, but because they aren’t translated into English.
Not according to what I was taught. The RCC is the Church that has the fullness of the truth. I was taught you are our separated brothers and sisters.

While we may be united in some ways as Baptism, and Yes Jesus did establish a Catholic Church, but he did not establish Protestant Church’s and protest some of his own teachings.

When someone says I am part of the RCC in order to be IN it you can’t go to a Protestant Church.

So I disagree I don"t believe Jesus started the Protestant Church.

But if you have proof that he did, I am willing to look at it.
 
I give all Evangelicals high marks on that. 👍

However, let me ask you this, because it is, on a personal level, one of the “hard sayings” that I find, well, really “hard”: will your Evangelical church marry someone who’s been divorced and wishes to re-marry (someone else)?
Yes, I think so. Does the CC recognize all marriages by divorces as not valid? This is a sincere question as my Uncle is married to a different woman than his first wife; and although he sinned, in Catholicism can he not be forgiven and is he sinning every time they try to have a child?
 
Not according to what I was taught. The RCC is the Church that has the fullness of the truth. I was taught you are our separated brothers and sisters.

While we may be united in some ways as Baptism, and Yes Jesus did establish a Catholic Church, but he did not establish Protestant Church’s and protest some of his own teachings.

When someone says I am part of the RCC in order to be IN it you can’t go to a Protestant Church.

So I disagree I don"t believe Jesus started the Protestant Church.

But if you have proof that he did, I am willing to look at it.
Because there’s only one Church, and it’s “Catholic.”
 
Jesus only established one Church, and all Christians are called to be ‘one with Him’ in His Church. All Christians share a special bond as members of the Body of Christ. Even though non-Catholics don’t actually belong to the Catholic Church, they are still considered to be members of the Body of Christ. So, for that reason they are still seen as our ‘separated brethren’, that we all hope and pray will, eventually, come back ‘home’.

The reason the Church uses the same name, “Catholic”, in every language, is so it will always be recognizable to anyone that might visit a foreign land, that needs to find a place to attend Mass. It is called ‘universal’ because it was meant to spread to the whole world.

The term “Eucharist” is simply explained on New Advent as:
"The name given to the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar in its twofold aspect of sacrament and Sacrifice of Mass, and in which Jesus Christ is truly present under the appearances of bread and wine.

Other titles are used, such as “Lord’s Supper” (Coena Domini), “Table of the Lord” (Mensa Domini), the “Lord’s Body” (Corpus Domini), and the “Holy of Holies” (Sanctissimum), to which may be added the following expressions, and somewhat altered from their primitive meaning: “Agape” (Love-Feast), “Eulogia” (Blessing), “Breaking of Bread”, “Synaxis” (Assembly), etc.; but the ancient title “Eucharistia” appearing in writers as early as Ignatius, Justin, and Irenæus, has taken precedence in the technical terminology of the Church and her theologians. The expression “Blessed Sacrament of the Altar”, introduced by Augustine, is at the present day almost entirely restricted to catechetical and popular treatises."
~ emphasis mine ~
Odd that it doesn’t mention “as early as the Bible” and states what it literally means. Not saying there’s any particular reason for that though.
 
Yes, I think so. Does the CC recognize all marriages by divorces as not valid? This is a sincere question as my Uncle is married to a different woman than his first wife; and although he sinned, in Catholicism can he not be forgiven and is he sinning every time they try to have a child?
The CC doesn’t recognize or not recognize marriages by non-Catholics generally. If your uncles ex-wife is alive, they are presumed married validly by the natural law, unless your uncle or his ex-wife is a Catholic and they married outside the Church without dispensation - then it’s invalid.
 
The CC doesn’t recognize or not recognize marriages by non-Catholics generally. If your uncles ex-wife is alive, they are presumed married validly by the natural law, unless your uncle or his ex-wife is a Catholic and they married outside the Church without dispensation - then it’s invalid.
Can they be forgiven and stay with each other? Or is that a no go?
 
I could ask you the same question. How do you know the claims the Catholic Church makes is true. At the end of the day, both of us are acting on faith, striving to obey our Lord as we understand them.

That is not to say that both of us are right. It’s just to say that we’re all making determinations on trust. You tell me I have a problem because my church doesn’t have a magisterium, and I simply have to wade through the morass of doctrine on my own encountering many dangers and traps and delusion. But in the end of the day, you have to do the same thing. You just choose to give that responsibility to the Catholic Church and submit to its determinations. You’re still operating on trust–trust that Jesus Christ personally established the Catholic Church and personally made the Pope his Vicar on earth. What if you’re wrong??? I trust in Jesus Christ and his Word illuminated by the Holy Spirit.
You’re right. At the end of the day, what we believe is based solely on our faith and trust in God. The main reason that I can be confident that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, is based on the fact that Jesus only established one Church. He promised to remain with that Church until He came, again. He also promised that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. After His Ascension, He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead that Church “into all truth”, so I have faith to believe that’s exactly what happened.

Would Jesus ever lie to us? Certainly not! Has the Catholic Church been around since the time of Christ? Absolutely. Therefore, I have to believe that the Holy Spirit has guided Her, and Jesus has remained with Her for all that time. Not only is He with us spiritually, but He is also physically present with us in the Eucharist. The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ that came down from Heaven. He would never leave Her, because “what God has joined together, let no man put asunder”. He gave His life for Her, so She could continue to grow and gather all of His children to Her, to also be One with Him. He “dug deep” and built His House upon a “solid rock”, with a strong foundation of faith in Him, so It could withstand all the storms to come. And, it’s still standing.

He also taught that we were all to be “as one”, just as He and His Father in Heaven, with the Holy Spirit, are One. Can God ever be separated? No, because there is only One God. Even when Jesus lived on earth, and became a man to save us all, He was never really separated from the Godhead, the Holy Trinity of God. Three distinct Persons Who are completely inseparable, being only One God. That’s what Jesus also wanted for His Church, that we should all remain together as One Body, One Spirit in Christ, undivided.
Anything is possible, but I find it hard to believe that the divinely inspired writers left out crucial information, relying on oral tradition alone (which I suppose Catholics mean the information contained in the Church Fathers???). The writers, in fact, repeat the theme of salvation over and over and over again. It was not an afterthought but everything they talked about.
Why should that be so surprising? The Jewish Law also consisted of the written Law, as well oral traditions. Not everyone was educated well enough to be able to read scripture, so many things had to be transmitted to the faithful, orally. They had to memorize scripture, to the letter, in order to do that. Also, in the early Church, all that the Apostles knew about Jesus was taught to others, both orally and by their own example. How do you think they taught the people everything that Jesus had said and done, before they had even written the New Testament scriptures? Why do you think John said that so many books could be written, that they would fill the whole world? Were all of those things unimportant or questionable, just because they weren’t written down at that time?

Why do you think they had to choose someone who had been a personal witness to Jesus when they first replaced Judas? Because, they knew that only someone who had been following Jesus throughout His public life, would know and understand, exactly, what He taught them. It wasn’t until many years later that they finally put many of the most important things on paper, but even then, they didn’t have the chance or time to write it *all *down. They were faithful to keep the whole truth of what they were taught by Jesus, and it took a lot of time and personal training by example, to teach someone new exactly what to preach as the Gospel.

I don’t understand why some people are hesitant to believe that there was a very strong oral tradition, along with strict methods and formulas to follow when they performed the ‘breaking of the bread’, or baptisms, or the ‘laying on of hands’. Jesus spent three and a half years, teaching them daily, how and what to do after He was gone. He gave all of that knowledge to them, so they could pass it on to the whole Church by word of mouth. Jesus never wrote anything down on paper, either. The Apostles learned by living the Gospel, not by reading about it. They passed it on to others the same way they learned it; by example. That’s why it was so important for the Church to remain as one, so that all of those things would never be lost to the rest of the world. The Church still teaches us by example, and not just through the written word. Written words can easily be misunderstood. So, by example, along with the written word, is the best way to teach exactly what Jesus taught.
 
These sacraments are salvific, to be sure.
Yes but are they works of righteousness to be justified by ? Is that Catholic ?
Your response above is a little sloppy so I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying but if you’re saying that Protestants can be righteous, well, that’s very Catholic.
They are just righteous because of their imperfect and distant union with His Body, the Catholic Church
So we too can be righteous, though some would say hobbling only on two sacraments, yet with full hopes of reaching the Celestial City ?
 
]But to Evangelical Christians it all seems to be mental, or spiritual.
I know what you mean and yet it better at least be mental and spiritual, and certainly not carnal. It is our whole being that dies with Christ so that a new whole being is made in Him, with His mind, a new heart and a revived spirit all represented in baptism
All one needs to do it seems is to say a mental prayer “from the heart”
Not sure about that. We usually speak of heart and mind as different aspects of our being. However, a “cry out to the Lord” could be simple like a child right ?
and one instantly becomes a Christian and is forgiven.
Is that impossible ? How did the thief on the cross do it ? Not sure about your instant , for even the thief suffered for hours, and certainly had time to ponder, yet at some point something happened. When does life (even in Christ) begin? Is it instant ? Well yes and no. “Instant” is a relative term and yet it is like a switch is turned, from death to life.
No physical action seems to be needed by EsandFs.
To me this is like an unborn child reaching out of his womb and hitting the switch. Trust me as soon as he was, he was physical and began being. He did not do something physical to “be”.
It does not seem to occur to Evangelicals that the sacraments are indeed works, but not works of our own but works of GOD.
The evangelical that is baptized does see it as indeed a work, a work wrought by God. They just don’t see it as initial salvation but a working out of that salvation as in profession, obedience, acknowledgement that the Lord by His grace hit previously the switch .
We have posted repeatedly the verses in Acts, 1st Peter, and the gospels that state outright that baptism “with water” forgives sins AND is not done after sins are forgiven by 'getting saved".
Maybe, maybe not. Sure can seem that way but… For sure people believe first and I say flesh can not believe and a dead spirit must be born again first in order to believe.
I think that some of the Evangelicals go by and read their basically Calvinist theology first and instead of reading the bible honestly. Read the bible with that theology in mind search out ‘proof texts’ to back their preconceived theology.
You mean they rest on a given (faulty) tradition ? You don’t have to (read honestly and without preconceptions) because your tradition is right ?
In fact many Evangelicals do not even believe in the sacraments and call them powerless ‘ordinances’ instead. I suppose so they can perhaps keep it all mental and ‘spiritual’.
Yes some do. Keeping it spiritual isn’t bad. I still say take a P and C church after church lets out and mix em up and you can not tell me which one had communion symbolically and which one transubstantially. Same with baptism. Mix em up afterward and can you tell me which ones believe in symbolic and which regenerational ?
Or one who just left the confessional and penance and one who confessed to the Lord and did any restitution.
 
No, but if he did become Catholic could they be forgiven and remain married?

(a bit off topic, but I actually don’t know)
If neither your uncle or your uncle’s ex-wife were Catholic, then your uncle needs to speak to his parish priest about seeking a declaration of nullity for the first marriage. If it is found that your uncle’s first marriage was invalid, if he wishes he could then ask the priest to bless his current marriage.

Normally, while the process for the declaration of nullity, the couple is asked to refrain from sexual relations and spend the time in prayer.
 
FathersKnowBest;12070753:
I find it curious that “bible christians” discount the Bible.

St. Peter clearly states: “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” [Acts 2:38]
We don’t discount that at all. In fact, we preach and teach on it all the time.

We just understand it different than you.

Last year, we had a party** for** my brother in law’s fiftieth birthday. So, when we say that we had a party*** for ***his birthday, does that mean that it was necessary for us to have a party in order for him to turn fifty? Or does it mean that we commemorated his birthday with a party?

Same here.“baptized for the remission of sins” means to commemorate the remission of sins we’ve already received as the result of our regeneration and salvation.
That is not what the text says though. You are reading into it an interpretation based on your pre-conceived theology. The plain meaning of the text is exactly what it says. Also, while your interpretation may work in English (although even then I think it is strained at best) where “for” is used in the sense of “in honor of” (see here #17 and here #10), it doesn’t hold up when we look at the original Greek. The Greek word translated as “for” in this passage is εἰς (eis). Looking at concordances and word studies we see that it means (emphasis mine):

eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)

eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, “motion into which” implying penetration (“unto,” “union”) to a particular purpose or result.

εἰς, a preposition governing the accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among.

Therefore, your interpretation of baptism being referred to here as a commemoration of previously forgiven sins simply doesn’t hold up when looking at the original Greek because “εἰς” is not used in Greek in the way that “for” can be used in English to mean something done in honor/commemoration of. On the other hand, the meaning of “εἰς” fits perfectly with Catholic theology as baptism “denot[es] entrance into” the new covenant and initiation (entrance) into the Church for the recipient and is given for the “particular purpose” of and “result” in the forgiveness of sins and “entrance into” new life.
FathersKnowBest;12070753:
and “Baptism…now saves you.”[1Pe3:21]
Why did you choose to omit so much from that passage?

Here is how it should be rendered:

1 Peter 3:18-22 - 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20becausee they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Changes the meaning quite a bit when somebody quote it in context for you, doesn’t it?
Not really. If anything, the surrounding context lends more credence to the position that baptism saves, as I explained here
FathersKnowBest;12070753:
St. Paul, also:
Titus 3:5: “[H]e saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration
and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”

1 Corinthians 6:11: “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Romans 6:3–4: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

What do any of these have to do with baptism?
Well the Romans verses specifically talk about baptism, so I’m not sure how you can imply that it doesn’t have anything to do with baptism. 🤷

As for the “washing of regeneration” mentioned in Titus, that is a reference to baptism. I discuss this further in post #372 of this thread.

(continued below)
 
(continued from above)
FathersKnowBest;12070753:
Mr 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved
; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

So, how can you say that baptism is required for salvation when the verse doesn’t say that one is not baptized is condemned, but one who does not believe?
See the double-conditional there? It says that there are TWO conditions to be saved.
The problem is that it doesn’t say that a lack of baptism will condemn, only a lack of faith.
But the question is “what is required for salvation?” and Jesus gives a straight answer right here, saying “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” He gives two conditions there. The fact that he doesn’t mention baptism when discussing condemnation has no bearing on what is required for salvation. Why would you use an argument from silence as the basis for determining what is required for salvation when you have a positive statement on what is required in the directly preceding clause? It doesn’t make sense. That is like if I said “You need $10 and a photo I.D. to get into the movie. If you don’t have your I.D. they won’t let you in,” and someone concluding “I must not need $10 to get into the movie since he only said that not having your I.D. would keep you from getting in.” That is a fallacious conclusion.
 
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SoMissCatholic:
But the question is “what is required for salvation?” and Jesus gives a straight answer right here, saying “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”
So, if baptism is required for salvation, then why isn’t a lack of baptism the reason for condemnation?
He gives two conditions there. The fact that he doesn’t mention baptism when discussing condemnation has no bearing on what is required for salvation. Why would you use an argument from silence as the basis for determining what is required for salvation when you have a positive statement on what is required in the directly preceding clause?
It’s not an argument from silence. It’s pointing out that one does not correlate to the other.
It doesn’t make sense. That is like if I said “You need $10 and a photo I.D. to get into the movie. If you don’t have your I.D. they won’t let you in,” and someone concluding “I must not need $10 to get into the movie since he only said that not having your I.D. would keep you from getting in.” That is a fallacious conclusion.
Categorization fallacy.
 
So, if baptism is required for salvation, then why isn’t a lack of baptism the reason for condemnation?
Because if one believed then they were Baptized. There wasn’t a question. They understood very well that the two go together. It is our sin that condemns us. Baptism is required in order to wash away our sin so that we are no longer condemned. Does a person who has been bitten by a venomous snake die from the poison or from lack of an anti-venom?
 
I don’t believe saying “I believe” saves. Anyone who believes that is deceived. There maybe churches who only care about affirmations of faith, but that is simply replacing one kind of sacramentalism with another. There is no magical formula that can save us. Anyone who teaches that is a false teacher. Jesus himself teaches us that the demons believe. Mere “belief” is not what saves and anyone who makes that the issue is setting themselves up for failure.

The Bible makes it clear that salvation is contingent on faith and repentance. Where there is faith, there is also repentance. The only reason that people can have true faith and true repentance is because of the convincing ministry of the Holy Spirit:

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged (John 16:8-11).

The Holy Spirit normally does this through the preaching of the Good News, Romans 10:17.
Very well said, and I agree. Just saying that you believe in God, doesn’t mean you really do. But, there are some people out there that really do think, that’s all it takes “to be saved”. As long as you proclaim it, then it’s so. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I also agree that there is no ‘magical formula’ to being saved. It’s much more complicated than most people want to believe. We must truly be sorry for our sins and do everything we can possibly do to avoid falling back into sin. It’s helpful to think about Jesus on the cross and how much our sins caused Him to suffer, whenever we find ourselves slipping. Not a pleasant thought, but it can be very effective.

If we truly believe with all our heart, and with all our mind and with all our soul, as we should, then we also have to change our lives to reflect that belief. If we truly believe, then we need to figure out what Jesus wants us to do for Him, every day. I don’t mean by going to church on Sunday just to show all of our friends how ‘faithful’ and ‘holy’ we are, either.

The first thing we need to learn to do is pray… a lot. Reading the Bible helps with that, but also by sitting (or kneeling) and thinking about God, and just talking to Jesus like you would to an old friend. You don’t even have to be actively praying, but every once in a while when we’re busy doing other things, we can stop for a second and just say something quick like, “Hello, Jesus”, or “I love you, Jesus.”.

We also need to put our faith to work through acts of charity. I don’t mean just by donating money, but by volunteering, or anything else that goes along with what Jesus asked us to do for others, by treating them with love and kindness. Those are all clear indications that we really do believe, and we’re willing to act on that belief. All of those things will bring us closer to God, and that’s always a good thing.
I have no problem saying the Holy Spirit is present in power for those who are baptized in faith. Yet, just as outward circumcision alone could not make one a Jew, neither does outward baptism alone make someone a son or daughter of God.
Amen to that! Even though we are made His adopted children in Baptism, we still need to really act like His loving children if we want to be treated like His children. 👍
 
Because if one believed then they were Baptized. There wasn’t a question. They understood very well that the two go together.
If they understood that the two go together, then why didn’t they go together in Jesus’ corollary?
 
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