So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

[BeingSaved]

I am of Christ, NOT of Luther, or Wesley, etc.

If that were the case, then the Early Church Fathers would have been protestants in their writings and deeds. They were not. They were thoroughly Catholic. There’s the rub.

this is not the case generally, the early church fathers do not really support one side or the other re the reformation, in any way that could be called full or unanimous…

they are divided about many things that Catholics hold dear,…and sometimes against what Catholics say are correct…

Sorry about jumping into your conversation, I was wrong about where you were coming from and what point you were at in discussion.

 

[Telstar]

Yes, you have done what Christians are called to do. The prayers of righteous people are effective, and I believe that God answers those prayers.

Yes, He does. We might not always realize that our prayers have been answered, but they always are. Sometimes, His answer is just ‘no’, but we usually don’t want to accept that answer. We’d rather believe that our prayer wasn’t answered at all, because no one wants to get ‘no’ for an answer, especially from God.

Even so, you have not believed for them. You have not repented of their sins. They have to do that by the power of the Holy Spirit.

When you pray for people, asking for their conversion, do you ask that God will accept your faith and your repentance on their behalf? In other words, do you pray that they will be saved because they know you and you know Christ? Or do you pray that the Holy Spirit will quicken them, making them alive in Christ and dead to sin? Or in other words, do you pray that they will come to know Christ and his love for themselves?

When we pray for someone to be converted, in essence, we do offer our own faith and love to God on behalf of that soul. We ask Him to have mercy on them, to touch their heart and forgive their sins.

But, some Catholics don’t just stop at praying for them. Many, also offer sacrifices. Sometimes, they might have Masses offered for them (especially if it’s family members), but usually it’s little things like giving up something they like for a day, or making a small donation to a charity, or by doing something that they really don’t like to do, but we do it for them.

Some Catholics also do something that is even more effective. They offer their daily sufferings up to God, united with the sufferings of Jesus, on behalf of their own souls and the souls of others. Everyone has something that would qualify as a ‘suffering’ in their lives, every day. Everything from little aches and pains, to being sick with a cold or anything like that. Even mental or emotional pain, loss of a friend, or just being misunderstood. The list goes on and on. Basically, just offering everything under the name of daily ‘sufferings’ will cover it.

That’s where the old saying comes from, that Catholics use whenever we talk about being in any kind of pain; “Offer it up!”. It’s what makes our daily ‘pains’ a little easier to take, because we know that God will accept it as a form of loving sacrifice, and apply the merits to our own soul, as well as to the souls of others. We also do all of these things for the holy souls in Purgatory. It’s all part of being a member of the Body of Christ. It’s the whole purpose behind the concept of “the communion of saints”. And, it really works.

 

[PRmerger]

During my short walk with the Lord and study in the H. Bible

What’s the H. Bible?

I have come across plenty of scripture that supports conditional security and also scripture that supports unconditional security. I haven’t done a tally as to how many seem to line up on either side.

If I did one, could we decide which is the most “correct” idea, by which one had the highest number of supporting scripture? Probably not.

I wouldn’t recommend that. That’s not Scriptural.

Perhaps the final answer is somewhere in between the two positions.

Sorry about jumping into the discussion at the end and its late,…

What conclusion have you come to regarding this idea?

When Scripture is unclear about something (and let’s face it, a great deal of it is difficult to understand)…

In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.–2 Peter 3:16

…I go to the Faith which gave us these Scriptures: the Catholic Church, and see what she says about this.

And, the CC proclaims that we have a moral assurance of our salvation (God will keep His word!) but not an absolute assurance (that is, we cannot be certain this side of heaven if we are saved or not).

IOW: no one know if she is saved until she is dead. Period.

I can see both, yes we are saved,(one time) and then changed more and more into His image.(progressive)

Saved, and also being saved, more and more,…as it is worked out in our daily lives…
also God saves us continually from things coming against us in life,…He delivers us from other people’s sins against us, and from even our thinking as we renew our minds

Then at the same time, we can choose to leave Him, however, no one who understands fully, ever really would leave Him,…but maybe through being deceived, we do, however,
there are scriptures that still talk about us in His hand, ie. and no one can take us out of there…

Very Catholic, this!

 

[BeingSaved]

As stated; where we differ is whether one is eternally secure.

Essentially the results remain the same though. Most Evangelical Churches that teach “OSAS” believe that if one falls away, then they were never truly “saved.” I think this is logically a poor belief, but it’s important for those who read Romans as teaching pre-destination.

I think where Catholics and all Protestants agree is that one can lose their salvation; however the circumstances of that loss can differ. Catholics will say that one could have believed and fell away, where some Protestants say they never could have truly believed in the first place.

Either way it doesn’t matter, the results are the same.

I see the above points you raised as comparable to the way that Catholics explain
annulment in marriage. Church lawyers go to bat looking into ‘how the marriage was established’,…and they annul if it didn’t come fully into being, with all the aspects that make marriage .

In the same way it can also be compared to an abortion of a pregnancy. Something started, however, all of it did not come fully into being.

 

[SteveVH]

In the same way it can also be compared to an abortion of a pregnancy. Something started, however, all of it did not come fully into being.

“Something” didn’t start, rather “Someone” started and did come fully into being. But just as an infant is not as fully formed as a toddler, neither is a fetus as fully formed as an infant. It’s stage of development doesn’t make it less of a human being.

 

[Porknpie]

“Something” didn’t start, rather “Someone” started and did come fully into being. But just as an infant is not as fully formed as a toddler, neither is a fetus as fully formed as an infant. It’s stage of development doesn’t make it less of a human being.

Steve,

For sure, the something is a someone, a human life that is not fully formed. It begins when the egg and sperm come together.

PNP

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

For sure, the something is a someone, a human life that is not fully formed. It begins when the egg and sperm come together.

PNP

Exactly!

 

[BeingSaved]

“Something” didn’t start, rather “Someone” started and did come fully into being. But just as an infant is not as fully formed as a toddler, neither is a fetus as fully formed as an infant. It’s stage of development doesn’t make it less of a human being.

I was meaning the analogy of the spontaneous abortion,…and
just to add something to that that I found in scripture, in the Psalms,…I think was where I found it, it is written about how a person is formed in the womb, that “the spirit comes to the bones”…(google for the address in the H. Scriptures)

(I am anti-abor.)not for…

 

[BeingSaved]

What’s the H. Bible?

I wouldn’t recommend that. That’s not Scriptural. Very Catholic, this!

H. Bible is short for Holy Bible, the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Porknpie]

this is not the case generally, the early church fathers do not really support one side or the other re the reformation, in any way that could be called full or unanimous…

they are divided about many things that Catholics hold dear,…and sometimes against what Catholics say are correct…

Sorry about jumping into your conversation, I was wrong about where you were coming from and what point you were at in discussion.

BeingSaved,

First, your name is very Catholic as salvation is a process and not a one time event. For this you get a big

If you read the early Church writings including those of the ECFs, you will find a belief in all the Catholic sacraments including the belief in the Salvific nature of baptism, infant baptism, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You will also find salvation to be a process, the we are being saved as St Paul describes, and not a one time event.

The reformation of course came along plus or minus 1,000 years later.

What are you thinking The Church got wrong at the time of the Early Church Fathers?

 

[BeingSaved]

“Something” didn’t start, rather “Someone” started and did come fully into being. But just as an infant is not as fully formed as a toddler, neither is a fetus as fully formed as an infant. It’s stage of development doesn’t make it less of a human being.

yes someone,…
agree,

poor word choice on my part,…

however for when the “spirit comes to the bones” in the new person, google this in H. Bible,…this I found I think in psalms,…
this indicates that there seems to be a diff. from when the physical part comes into existence, which is later joined by the spirit of the person, sent by God, I presume,…

did you notice this scripture before?

 

[SteveVH]

I was meaning the analogy of the spontaneous abortion,…and
just to add something to that that I found in scripture, in the Psalms,…I think was where I found it, it is written about how a person is formed in the womb, that “the spirit comes to the bones”…(google for the address in the H. Scriptures)

(I am anti-abor.)not for…

“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13)

 

[BeingSaved]

What’s the H. Bible?

I wouldn’t recommend that. That’s not Scriptural.

When Scripture is unclear about something (and let’s face it, a great deal of it is difficult to understand)…

In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.–2 Peter 3:16

…I go to the Faith which gave us these Scriptures: the Catholic Church, and see what she says about this.

And, the CC proclaims that we have a moral assurance of our salvation (God will keep His word!) but not an absolute assurance (that is, we cannot be certain this side of heaven if we are saved or not).

IOW: no one know if she is saved until she is dead. Period.

Very Catholic, this!

Hello PR,…

well,…although we seem to be saying some of the same things,…
there is a point I want to differ with you on,…
and that is in the practical working out of how CC explanations are effecting people
who are fully committed and faithful Catholics,.
oops strike that,
I only know one, personally, and I don’t know them too well,…

however, there seems to be a “leaning” that this faithful Catholic had too far toward the
“not knowing” side, meaning that they did not feel assured, when ordinarily, they should have been, I thought,…and I think they were interpreting teaching
in a way that hurt them…

This is a point where we would differ,…

I would see, from my H. Bible studies, that my salvation is more firm than my faithful C. friend would see about his salvation.

although yes, saved, and being saved, there is another ingredient in my understanding that FCF (faithful Catholic friend) doesn’t have, and my ingredient is that
WHILE I have been saved, and during the time I am going on to be saved,…
I am trusting in the scriptures that tell me I CAN have confidence in my salvation as I go along,…progressing, sometimes moving forward, sometimes falling back,…
I am ALL the WHILE saved,…as I move toward the completion,…

I can know this from H. Bible Scripture (H is Holy) that tells me to be assured, as I am going forward in spiritual things.

When I entered into the marriage with Jesus, I became His, and only some violent and irreparable series of events will take me out of that marriage.

Comparable to CC marriage laws and rules,…(was the marriage valid? then if so, it continues…correct?)

CC lawyers look into things, did both parties intend to and understand when they committed,? then the marriage stands.

This is one of the things even from CC itself hat supports osas ideas,…I am not saying I am osas., as I wonder if God wants us to even finally know,.about complete security in Him,…there are scriptures on both sides of this point.

For someone entering into marriage and wanting to cheat from the get go, ie. they want to take advantage of all the benefits of marriage,…(comparing this to their spiritual marriage to Jesus, they want all the benefits Jesus brings, but do they really love Him? Its like marrying someone because they are rich, the spouse wants to have money, but do they really love the wealthy person?)

What would CC decide on this kind of marriage, ie someone marrying a rich man, and then
betraying all the vows and being totally unfaithful, would CC lawyers annul this marriage?

If they did agree to annul, it would only Depend on IF one of the spouses asked for the annulment, even though one spouse does not love the rich spouse, and is only with them for how they can benefit,…
can you see this,? as us with Jesus? Jesus has so mUCHHHHHHHH love that
I do not think He would ask for an annulment from someone using Him like this.
(However, His Father might, to protect Him)

See the analogy.

Please someone make your response to my post come to my attention so I can find this post again,…I am not sure how to find posts to see if someone has replied, how do you do it? I had to search

 

[PRmerger]

Hello PR,…

well,…although we seem to be saying some of the same things,…
there is a point I want to differ with you on,…
and that is in the practical working out of how CC explanations are effecting people
who are fully committed and faithful Catholics,.
oops strike that,
I only know one, personally, and I don’t know them too well,…

however, there seems to be a “leaning” that this faithful Catholic had too far toward the
“not knowing” side,

Best not to judge the Catholic Church by how Catholics act.

Best to judge the Catholic Church on what she actually teaches.

 

[BeingSaved]

PS re my FCF faithful catholic friend,…

how the way he understands cc teaching hurts him is in this way,…
he does not have assurance so lives in fear sometimes,…
this is not the heart or love of God for someone to be in fear like that,
while In a relationship with a God who loves them.

Appropriate respect for God is important, but a soul who loves God shouldn’t be tortured
or tormented, as this is the work of the devil…

the devil comes to steal kill and destroy, but Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly, bible quote, and I don’t see abundant life in this aspect of my FCF 's
receiving of cc teaching on this topic.

what is your answer on this point?

Also re bc, …many young couples do not have the spiritual maturity to
handle all the implications of not using bc and the reasons why. nor do they have what’s needed to follow charting etc. for nfp,…so
ther lives could be miserable with fears re God and His judging them even a place where they should be happiest,…in marriage and these things may destroy their happiness…
esp. in the marriage bed…
these are some of my concerns,…
Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, not to make us miserable, right?

I just mean most youth have no support to even learn how to handle their sexuality nor
how to grow spiritually,…
the FCF I met was a gem, a real jewel in God’s crown, precious spirituality, yet I thought
CC rules and regs were doing him damage. seemed to be destructive to his relating to God in some ways,…

 

[PRmerger]

When I entered into the marriage with Jesus, I became His, and only some violent and irreparable series of events will take me out of that marriage.

Where do you get this idea that only a “violent and irreparable series of events” can take you out of that marriage?

It seems that if marriage between a man and a woman can end (quite often, sadly) without “violent and irreparable series of events” (such as, simply, a spouse packing his/her bags and walking out), why would your marriage to Jesus be any different?

Comparable to CC marriage laws and rules,…(was the marriage valid? then if so, it continues…correct?)

Surely you aren’t saying that marriage shouldn’t have laws and rules.

I mean, things such mundane things as baseball, banking, bowling, beer making have laws and rules!

But you don’t think marriage should have laws and rules?

That’s an astonishing belief!

(And, one, BTW, that is never proclaimed in a single page of the Bible)

 

[PRmerger]

For someone entering into marriage and wanting to cheat from the get go, ie. they want to take advantage of all the benefits of marriage,…(comparing this to their spiritual marriage to Jesus, they want all the benefits Jesus brings, but do they really love Him? Its like marrying someone because they are rich, the spouse wants to have money, but do they really love the wealthy person?)

What would CC decide on this kind of marriage, ie someone marrying a rich man, and then
betraying all the vows and being totally unfaithful, would CC lawyers annul this marriage?

If a person entered into a marriage without any intention of being married and intended to cheat on his/her spouse, then the marriage would be annulled, (generally speaking, of course.)

What would your pastor say about that marriage?

 

[BeingSaved]

Where do you get this idea that only a “violent and irreparable series of events” can take you out of that marriage?

It seems that if marriage between a man and a woman can end (quite often, sadly) without “violent and irreparable series of events” (such as, simply, a spouse packing his/her bags and walking out), why would your marriage to Jesus be any different?

Surely you aren’t saying that marriage shouldn’t have laws and rules.

I mean, things such mundane things as baseball, banking, bowling, beer making have laws and rules!

But you don’t think marriage should have laws and rules?

That’s an astonishing belief!

(And, one, BTW, that is never proclaimed in a single page of the Bible)

I don’t think you read all my post, because you didn’t answer it.

I am comparing my marriage or our marriage with Jesus, to the CC rules of marriage.

1.A ccording to CC rules, only annulment can end a marriage, …correct?

2.Annulment can only occur if a a valid marriage did not take place in the first place.

3 CC lawyers only annul if one of the parties asks for an annulment.

Knowing Jesus and His love, I do not think He would ever ask for an annulment,
even if someone is ‘not in a valid marriage’ with Him.

Therefore, CC rules of marriage, in themselves, in the way I have described above, support OSAS ideas.

big grin

 

[BeingSaved]

The argument I make, is a rational argument, based on the principles of rational argument,
so don’t try to squiggle out of this by throwing in a red herring.

I gotcha in this,…grin,…

I am having some fun at your expense, but you don’t mind, do you?

 

[PRmerger]

Please someone make your response to my post come to my attention so I can find this post again,…I am not sure how to find posts to see if someone has replied, how do you do it? I had to search

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