So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

[Pancras]

.

namer0331:

So what verses are used in support for this doctrine? Is it biblical? I would also like to know when they mean “saved” is it a past-tense and you can no-longer lose your salvation?

Catholics don’t believe [your] need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior?

With questions like this I can understand why you are an “ex-Catholic”.

“How so?”

Because, House Harkonnen, You’re not saved until you’re dead. That’s how so.
.

 

[adf417]

You misunderstood my post,…

I don’t think so!

…its hard to express sarcasm online.

You did a very good job of it as I picked up on every drop of it. I just wanted to make sure we cleared that up.

Of course I know the Roman Catholic Church teaches that you must accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior to be saved.

That’s why I think its a bit ironic and inconsistent that the OP critiques protestant Christians for teaching that you have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior when the Roman Catholic Church just as surely teaches that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and savior.

Im sorry you see the OP as “ironic and inconsistent”. I see the OP asking an honest question and I my self keep hoping for decent answers to the same question. That is what this forum is about. You may be right that the OP is being somewhat rhetorical, but sarcasm surly isn’t any way to find out is it?

Peace!!!

 

[House_Harkonnen]

.

Because, House Harkonnen, You’re not saved until you’re dead. That’s how so.
.

That’s not what scripture says, nor what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Pancras]

That’s not what scripture says, nor what the Catholic Church teaches.

So, where does the Catholic Church teach that your salvation is assured long before the end of your life?

Can you provide any official document of the Catholic Church which pronounces that which you’re claiming here?

If we make a list of all the canonized saints in two columns, those who feared they could lose their salvation at the last possible moment, and those who were assured they had no reason for such fear, how long would each column be?
.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

So, where does the Catholic Church teach that your salvation is assured long before the end of your life?

Can you provide any official document of the Catholic Church which pronounces that which you’re claiming here?

If we make a list of all the canonized saints in two columns, those who feared they could lose their salvation at the last possible moment, and those who were assured they had no reason for such fear, how long would each column be?
.

So, where does the Catholic Church teach that your salvation is assured long before the end of your life?

One is saved through baptism, until they commit some mortal sin which destroys sanctifying grace. Then a person post baptism but prior to committing some mortal sin is saved.

Even so, my favorite Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid acknowledges that a person is saved, continues to be saved, and will be saved, at the same time.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
*

So your response of “no one is saved until they die” is at best a third of the truth. We are also saved here and now.

If we make a list of all the canonized saints in two columns, those who feared they could lose their salvation at the last possible moment, and those who were assured they had no reason for such fear, how long would each column be?

It doesn’t matter to me what any saint believed. Do you think that the apostles while boldly proclaiming the gospel of salvation to others walked around with their fingers crossed hoping that they were actually really and truly saved?

 

[Protestor]

.
You’re not saved until you’re dead.

I don’t know if you thought that was edifying, but I assure you that it was not. I think you may be confusing eternal salvation with salvation. There are at least a few like 10 quotes from only mathew until 2chor that state a possession of salvation or having it. These words are not in the future tense so I think it would be wrong to translate them as such. I think you should look at newadvent as well.

“Salvation has in Scriptural language the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security… Sacred Scripture uses the word “salvation” mainly in the sense of liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin and its consequences.”

Giving one sentence answers is really annoying and not helpful. If you like posting and want to help or guide people great. If you want to be a troll just say so and you will be ignored

 

[SyroMalankara]

It doesn’t matter to me what any saint believed. Do you think that the apostles while boldly proclaiming the gospel of salvation to others walked around with their fingers crossed hoping that they were actually really and truly saved?

They worked their salvation in fear and trembling, and taught others how to do the same in Christ.

 

[Pancras]

One is saved through baptism, until they commit some mortal sin which destroys sanctifying grace. Then a person post baptism but prior to committing some mortal sin is saved.

**Incorrect. **

Therefore what follows is false**:**

*Even so, my favorite Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid acknowledges that a person is saved, continues to be saved, and will be saved, at the same time. *

But you are here, and Madrid is not.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
*

In typical protestant fashion, you misunderstand and misquote Scripture.

So your response of “no one is saved until they die” is at best a third of the truth. We are also saved here and now.

Wrong again… Do you enjoy striking out repeatedly?

The doctrine that no one is saved until they die cannot be denied with any truth. Anyone can commit a mortal sin on their deathbed and suffer damnation as a consequence. This is the purpose of a death-watch and for Anointing of the Sick (erstwhile Extreme Unction). It is the reason we pray for final perseverance.

Why would Final Perseverance even be a topic for study and meditation and supplication if it were a moot point? Are you aware that nothing can ever assure anyone, regardless of who they are, that they have already merited, or could ever merit the grace of final perseverance? This is unquestionably a doctrine of the Church and I could prove it, but what good would it do for you? You think you don’t have to believe it, so my explanation would only make you MORE culpable. I’d rather not increase your culpability, out of charity.

The prayers of the Church are full of examples of this, and many of our most popular prayers make NO SENSE if this were not so (that you’re not saved until you’re dead). But then, anyone (like you) who denies this doctrine wouldn’t understand those prayers, so that’s probably why you left the Church: the prayers were ‘meaningless’ to you for this very reason (and perhaps other reasons as well).

***It doesn’t matter to me what ***any saint believed. Do you think that the apostles while boldly proclaiming the gospel of salvation to others walked around with their fingers crossed hoping that they were actually really and truly saved?

The Apostles *WERE *saints!

So it doesn’t matter what the Apostles believed? If you think that, then the discussion is finished.

The Apostles were not Freemasons so why would they have “walked around with fingers crossed?”

They did *not *go around PRESUMING that they were saved, that’s for SURE.

But you probably wouldn’t pay attention to any examples, &c…

Read SyroMalankara’s post, above, or, I’ll just copy it here to make it simple:

…

They worked [out?] their salvation in fear and trembling, and taught others how to do the same in Christ.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11995765&postcount=27

If they were “already saved” why would they bother with the*** “fear and trembling”*** or why would they even have to "work out" anything? They were SAVED! (according to House Harkonnen, that is).

.

 

[ltwin]

Even so, my favorite Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid acknowledges that a person is saved, continues to be saved, and will be saved, at the same time.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).*

There are many Evangelicals who believe this as well.

 

[Pancras]

"House Harkonnen:

Even so, my favorite Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid acknowledges that a person is saved, continues to be saved, and will be saved, at the same time.

There are many Evangelicals who believe this as well.

Wait a minute. How could a Catholic apologist agree with the false beliefs of someone else? Someone must be making a mistake… (or should I say, “error?”)
.

 

[JustaServant]

This subject has kinda been beaten into the ground over the years here, so I will re-post an old response with slight revision:

The evangelical concept of a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus, is modern Western, individualistic terminology unknown to the writers of Scripture and the early Church.
Our relationship with Jesus is intensely personal. That is true, but it is not exclusive.
The often cited verse for this is when Paul said ‘Christ in you, the hope of Glory’.
The problem is that in the Greek that Paul used it is plural, not singular.
It should read ‘Christ in YOU ALL, the hope of Glory.’ The Church is not made up of isolated individuals, but members of the mystical body of Christ Himself. Paul said we are “members one to another”.
Here is what evangelicals must wrestle with:
Jesus gave two very clear commands to His Church, Baptism and the Eucharist.
One cannot baptize oneself, it requires another person. Recieving the Eucharist requires another person, even if its a priest to a shut-un.
Christianity is corparate, not individualistic.
There was an old Tennesee Ernie Ford Gospel hymn called ‘Me and Jesus on the Jericho road’, or something like that. Giving the impression that our relationship with Christ is exclusive to an individual person.
That is why many think they can ‘worship at home’ in the privacy of their living room listening to a preacher or sacred hymns.
Jesus gave a very clear worship COMMAND that requires other human beings. Not a ‘Lone Ranger’ christianity.
Catholics have a personal relationship with Christ. We know Him as Lord and Savior, we are members of His Body (how much more personal can one get?), we pray to Him, we worship Him, we adore Him, we seek to follow Him.
More importantly, receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ into our very person is pretty darn personal.

 

[JustaServant]

Wait a minute. How could a Catholic apologist agree with the false beliefs of someone else? Someone must be making a mistake… (or should I say, “error?”)
.

You seriously need to read the forum posting rules before proceeding.

 

[Pancras]

I don’t know if you thought that was edifying, but I assure you that it was not. I think you may be confusing eternal salvation with salvation. There are at least a few like 10 quotes from only mathew until 2chor that state a possession of salvation or having it. These words are not in the future tense so I think it would be wrong to translate them as such. I think you should look at newadvent as well.

“Salvation has in Scriptural language the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security… Sacred Scripture uses the word “salvation” mainly in the sense of liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin and its consequences.”

Giving one sentence answers is really annoying and not helpful. If you like posting and want to help or guide people great. If you want to be a troll just say so and you will be ignored

Congratulations for being the first person to ever criticize me for being too brief.
Here I go trying to cut to the chase and voila! Someone is offended. Go figure!

I think you may be confusing eternal salvation with salvation.

Furthermore, shame on me for “confusing eternal salvation with salvation!?!?” Let me know how many souls in Purgatory or Hell are glad that they did not confuse likewise. Or, that is, if you can find one.

What is meant by “Lex suprema salus animarum est?” Or do you have something more important to think about?
.

 

[ltwin]

Wait a minute. How could a Catholic apologist agree with the false beliefs of someone else? Someone must be making a mistake… (or should I say, “error?”)
.

What an illogical train of thought.

I believe in the Trinity. Does that mean the Catholic apologists who defend the Trinity are in error or does it simply mean that non-Catholics can agree with Catholics about the Trinity?

I believe that the Gospel of Mathew is inspired Scripture. Does that mean the Catholics who believe that are in error? Or does it simply mean that on that particular issue, Catholics and non-Catholics agree?

I believe that we can have assurance, based on the Word of God, that those who place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins are saved. This is not a one time event, but a constant process. There is an initial moment when we are convinced by the Holy Spirit that we are indeed sinners in need of a savior and that Jesus Christ is that savior. But there is a race we must run as well. The Scriptures speak of salvation in both the past, present, and future tense.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Pancras]

You seriously need to read the forum posting rules before proceeding.

Do you have any specific rule in mind? Or are there multiple locations for them? I thought I had read them all, at least twice. Please provide a link for what you’re talking about.
.

 

[Pancras]

What an illogical train of thought.

I believe in the Trinity. Does that mean the Catholic apologists who defend the Trinity are in error or does it simply mean that non-Catholics can agree with Catholics about the Trinity?

I believe that the Gospel of Mathew is inspired Scripture. Does that mean the Catholics who believe that are in error? Or does it simply mean that on that particular issue, Catholics and non-Catholics agree?

Your belief in the Trinity and in the truth of Matthew’s gospel don’t sound very erroneous. So what does that have to do with anything?
.

 

[ltwin]

Well, from my activity on this forum for over a few years, Catholics have given me the “we are saved, being saved, will be saved” line far more often than the “no one is saved until they are dead” line. So, perhaps you are the one in error. I’m not Catholic, though so it’s not my bone to pick.

I would just say that we can have assurance, based on the Word of God, that those who place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins are saved. This is not a one time event, but a constant process. There is an initial moment when we are convinced by the Holy Spirit that we are indeed sinners in need of a savior and that Jesus Christ is that savior. But there is a race we must run as well. The Scriptures speak of salvation in both the past, present, and future tense.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such ***were ***some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Bookcat]

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Pancras]

.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see any reply to this post I made previously:

So, where does the Catholic Church teach that your salvation is assured long before the end of your life?

Can you provide any official document of the Catholic Church which pronounces that which you’re claiming here?

If we make a list of all the canonized saints in two columns, those who feared they could lose their salvation at the last possible moment, and those who were assured they had no reason for such fear, how long would each column be?
.

 

[Pancras]

Well, from my activity on this forum for over a few years, Catholics have given me the “we are saved, being saved, will be saved” line far more often than the “no one is saved until they are dead” line. So, perhaps you are the one in error. I’m not Catholic, though so it’s not my bone to pick.

I would just say that we can have assurance, based on the Word of God, that those who place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins are saved. This is not a one time event, but a constant process.

There is a distinction to be made. The distinction is too often overlooked, and so, to bring it to the surface, the statement that “You’re not saved until you’re dead” has a lot of power.

The distinction is this: **We can have assurance, based on the word of God, that those who place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins and do penance MAY be saved. (Not “are” saved.) **It is not a one-time event because they can fall out of grace by sin, and therefore, it is a constant process.

When you say “they are saved” it is a half truth and a half truth is a whole lie. They are only saved in potency, meaning that they have the potential to be saved, but they are not saved in act. The salvation of anyone is INCOMPLETE until their life is OVER.

There is an initial moment when we are convinced by the Holy Spirit that we are indeed sinners in need of a savior and that Jesus Christ is that savior. But there is a race we must run as well. The Scriptures speak of salvation in both the past, present, and future tense.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such ***were ***some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

It is not the place of laymen to interpret Scripture, and that is a doctrine found in Scripture itself.
.