So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

[stewstew03]

Unfortunately, I’m not allowed to defend my beliefs,
…

Cop out…

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[Jon_S_1]

Actually, nobody has been honest enough to post the whole passage. You just keep posting v 21, as though that’s the entire passage.

The problem, I’ve learned from talking to former posters here and lurking long before I started posting, is that virtually any disagreement is deemed “promoting doctrines contrary to Catholicism”.

From talking to numerous posters who have been banned for doing that.

Somisscatholic posted 1 Peter 3:18-21

I will post the entirety of chapter 3 here. Hopefully that’s enough context for you.

3 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Suffering for Doing Good

8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For,

“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[a]
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats**; do not be frightened.”[c] 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 **keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ **may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you -not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It **saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I understand you’re emabarrased at getting caught posting 2 Peter 3:21 and other verses out of context, but if you go back and look at my posts, you’ll see that I included the context with each verse.

This is the type of arrogant, derogatory, unproductive, childish posts that get people banned. I suggest you tone down the rhetoric.

I disagree. I discuss that verse with fundamentalists all the time and they have no problem including it.

I can think of ZERO times that people have come to these boards or posted Ephesians 2:8,9 anywhere in context when it comes to proving faith alone. I have not once seen them include verse 10. I believe this is generally because it is quoted in sermons and on plaques and other things without verse 10. At least that was my experience when I was fundamentalist.

You baptize infants. How does an infant make an “educated decision to become a Christian”?

How long were the babies you baptized believing for and how do you know?

I think we need to stick to adult baptism for now and we can move to infant once we conclude adult baptism so as not to convolute the issues.

So, anyone who is not baptized is not a Christian?

More or less- Anyone who chooses not to be baptized is not truly a Christian This is not to say they cannot be saved, that is a side issue. I believe Luther and Calvin, and countless other protestants would agree with us on this.

Actually, the verse I cited was from Paul, not a “Baptist pastor”.

Second, you still haven’t shown any verses to contradict the verse I posted.

Really you think I am so stupid to think that you did not quote the Bible?? Come on man!

The hypothetical baptist pastor I referenced was one that says that all you have to do is believe.

I completely affirm Hebrews 11 where you cherry picked the first verse and negated the entire chapter that describes in detail the LIVING FAITH of all the Old Testament Figures. The FAITH THAT RESULTED IN ACTIONS. THE FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE, THE FAITH THAT DOES SOMETHING!!!

…this, of course, coming from the same guy who thought a Bible verse was just “something a Baptist pastor said”.

Again this is the type of derogatory arrogance that is completely unchristian and if shown to be a pattern will result in you being banned. You won’t be banned for defending your faith, but you will for making ridiculous and superfluous inflammatory statements like this that are totally unnecessary.

I can tell you right now, based on twenty-five years of study, that Jesus never says this.

So, perhaps you should take your own advice and read the Bible, yourself.

Well I am glad you agree that Jesus does not promote faith without deeds.

 

[PRmerger]

I understand you’re emabarrased at getting caught posting 2 Peter 3:21 and other verses out of context, but if you go back and look at my posts, you’ll see that I included the context with each verse.

I disagree. I discuss that verse with fundamentalists all the time and they have no problem including it.

You baptize infants. How does an infant make an “educated decision to become a Christian”?

How long were the babies you baptized believing for and how do you know?

So, anyone who is not baptized is not a Christian?

Actually, the verse I cited was from Paul, not a “Baptist pastor”.

Second, you still haven’t shown any verses to contradict the verse I posted.

…this, of course, coming from the same guy who thought a Bible verse was just “something a Baptist pastor said”.

Read them and study them all the time.

I can tell you right now, based on twenty-five years of study, that Jesus never says this.

So, perhaps you should take your own advice and read the Bible, yourself.

Shoot! You are in danger of being banned, SB.

But it won’t be for providing your apologia.

It will be for mocking posts and being uncharitable.

However, if you can model your posts after some of the prolific and terrific non-Catholic posters here I’m sure you’ll do fine.

It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

 

[South_Bound]

Jon S:

Well I am glad you agree that Jesus does not promote faith without deeds.

Actually, that’s not what you said at all. You said, “I suggest you do and look for the passages where Jesus says their is nothing but assent of the mind required to follow him.”

You then took the answer I gave to that statement and applied to another, unrelated statement.

I’m sorry, but if you’re now going to resort to dishonesty, as well as being just plain childish and rude, I’m going use the ignore feature.

Incidentally, it’s there, not “their”.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Actually, that’s not what you said at all. You said, “I suggest you do and look for the passages where Jesus says their is nothing but assent of the mind required to follow him.”

You then took the answer I gave to that statement and applied to another, unrelated statement.

I’m sorry, but if you’re now going to resort to dishonesty, as well as being just plain childish and rude, I’m going use the ignore feature.

Incidentally, it’s there, not “their”.

Well now I am just confused. You seem to be defending Faith as “belief in Jesus”. This is what I was addressing.

The Catholic Church believes that one is saved by Faith Alone, as long as that Faith is not divorced from Love.

So, do you believe in a working faith or do you believe in a faith that is essentially “pray the sinners pray and you are good to go”.

Thanks for pointing out the typo, I must be such an idiot and know nothing about theology and Christianity since I made a mistake typing “their”.

 

[South_Bound]

dp.

 

[South_Bound]

PRmerger:

It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

Does this include the same knowledgable Catholics who are trying to goad me into breaking the rules?

Or the same knowledgable Catholic who claimed that a verse of the Bible was “just something some Baptist pastor told [me]” and then took an answer I gave to one statement and applied it to another, unrelated statement?

You guys have a really hard time grasping the fact that I don’t care what you choose to belief. I’m not Catholic. What Catholics want to believe is strictly between them and other Catholics. I’m not trying to argue that you’re wrong or that I’m right.

I’m here to answer questions about Protestantism, since there seems to be so much confusion and lack of knowledge about what we believe. I’m not here to proselytize, not here to promote doctrines contrary to Catholicism, not here to do anything but explain our beliefs.

As a result, no, I’m not going to debate with you. If you think 2 Peter 3:21 supports salvation by baptism, then, by all means, please go right ahead. I don’t care. I’m just here to explain that we don’t and why we don’t.

Why don’t you show us Protestants how secure you are in your Catholic faith by accepting that we have different beliefs and stop being so threatened by them, acting as if we’re the enemy and you have to defeat us at any cost?

 

[Jon_S_1]

dp.

Please read my post to you, I am going to ask for an apology now for lying about my statements.

I corrected you on your misconceptions and now you are presenting your erroneous misconceptions as some sort of fact as if I am uneducated.

PRmerger will vouch for me on that I think.

So I would appreciate your (is that the correct spelling of your in this context?) apology.

Then lets move on to you “teaching us what protestants believe”.

I hope you realize most of us were protestants. There are former protestant ministers and seminarians here, Sunday School Teachers, Adult Fellowship leaders, deacons, elders, etc…

I for one was 30 years protestant, a leader in my protestant church, educated in protestant schools, and I feel I have a pretty good grasp on my fundamentalist/evangelical/ baptist leaning churches I have belonged to.

Granted, Protestantism is so diverse, no one can really say “this is what protestants believe”.

Perhaps you can share your denomination so that we can discuss what “x denomination” believes.

 

[SteveVH]

Why don’t you show us Protestants how secure you are in your Catholic faith by accepting that we have different beliefs and stop being so threatened by them, acting as if we’re the enemy and you have to defeat us at any cost?

If you walked to window and saw a magnificent sunset would you ask a member of your family to get off the couch and come to the window to experience something beautiful with you, even if they seemed uninterested?

If someone you loved was in need of a life-saving surgery would you do everything possible to convince them to undergo that surgery even if they protested?

We are in no way threatened by your beliefs. We believe you are threatened by your beliefs and are only making our case as to why we believe this to be so.

Peace.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

You guys have a really hard time grasping the fact that I don’t care what you choose to belief. I’m not Catholic. What Catholics want to believe is strictly between them and other Catholics. I’m not trying to argue that you’re wrong or that I’m right.

I assume you were baptized Catholic since, according to you, you “left Catholicism.” If that is the case, then in the eyes of the Catholic Church you are still Catholic, even though you no longer consider yourself to be Catholic.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

Perhaps you can share your denomination so that we can discuss what “x denomination” believes.

He/she (forgive me, South Bound, as I don’t know whether you are male or female) is a Baptist.

 

[South_Bound]

I assume you were baptized Catholic since, according to you, you “left Catholicism.” If that is the case, then in the eyes of the Catholic Church you are still Catholic, even though you no longer consider yourself to be Catholic.

Oh, believe me, I know. I’m told that constantly by Catholics.

 

[Jon_S_1]

He/she (forgive me, South Bound, as I don’t know whether you are male or female) is a Baptist.

That is what I thought. As such, correct me if I am wrong Southbound, but you would believe that all one needs to do to be saved is to confess Jesus is Lord without any other qualifications on that.

You may hold that someone without a life change is “never really saved to begin with”, but in general, it is “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him form the dead and you will be saved” (Thats the Bible not a Protestant Pastor).

We too believe that, but we also believe Jesus in Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I found when I was a baptist and teaching the Roman Road, that I really was teaching Paul as if he stood alone from Christ. The Gospels were for story telling like the Old Testament, but theology came from Paul. (note: this was not explicitly ever stated, but it certainly was practically and culturally true)

What an egregious error!

The truth is we should focus on Christ as Paul did, and use the writings of Paul as supplements to the words of God Himself through Christ Jesus in the Gospels.

 

[Porknpie]

Catholics take all of scripture into account South Bound. They believed and were baptized. The two go together and are necessary for salvation just as Jesus himself says. That’s exactly what they did. And they rejoiced. For sure. Scripture can not contradict itself. It does not contradict itself.

So you can’t have two verses in conflict:
a) believe in The Lord Jesus and you will be saved
b) believe in The Lord Jesus and be baptized and you will be saved.

You can not take verse b) and do this
b) believe in The Lord Jesus -]and be baptized/-] and you will be saved.

PnP

South Bound,

What’s your thoughts here… How can the Word of God in scripture contradict itself?

Catholics don’t take just one verse. We take the entire passage and multiple passages to understand Gods Word. And of course, we don’t take Scripture Alone. That’s not scriptural. We take with it what has been handle down through Tradition since the apostles, guarded and protected by The Church. That is scriptural. St Paul says to hold fast to what you have been taught by word and by letter.

There is that word again.

And.

PnP

 

[South_Bound]

That is what I thought. As such, correct me if I am wrong Southbound, but you would believe that all one needs to do to be saved is to confess Jesus is Lord without any other qualifications on that.

No.

We too believe that

Don’t care.

South Bound,

What’s your thoughts here… How can the Word of God in scripture contradict itself?

Why don’t you ask the person who says it contradicts?

Catholics don’t take just one verse.

Actually, you routinely quote verses out of contest. 2 Peter 3:21 comes to mind.

We take the entire passage and multiple passages to understand Gods Word.

You say that and yet, twice today, I’ve seen Catholics post verses out of context.

SteveVH:

If you don’t care what Catholics believe then why are you here?

For the same reason I’ve already explained in a previous post.

 

[SteveVH]

Don’t care.

If you don’t care what Catholics believe then why are you here?

 

[SoMissCatholic]

That is what I thought. As such, correct me if I am wrong Southbound, but you would believe that all one needs to do to be saved is to confess Jesus is Lord without any other qualifications on that.

You may hold that someone without a life change is “never really saved to begin with”, but in general, it is “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him form the dead and you will be saved” (Thats the Bible not a Protestant Pastor).

We too believe that, but we also believe Jesus in Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I found when I was a baptist and teaching the Roman Road, that I really was teaching Paul as if he stood alone from Christ. The Gospels were for story telling like the Old Testament, but theology came from Paul. (note: this was not explicitly ever stated, but it certainly was practically and culturally true)

What an egregious error!

The truth is we should focus on Christ as Paul did, and use the writings of Paul as supplements to the words of God Himself through Christ Jesus in the Gospels.

I assume this phrase means teaching the doctrine of faith alone according to the Book of Romans? (as I am a cradle Catholic, I’m not familiar with that phrase) If so, what is the response to/is any time spent studying Romans 2:5-8?

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

(Romans 2:5-8 NABRE)

It would seem to me that that passage poses quite a stumbling block to the doctrine of sola fide.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

No.

Don’t care.

Why don’t you ask the person who says it contradicts?

Actually, you routinely quote verses out of contest. 2 Peter 3:21 comes to mind.

You say that and yet, twice today, I’ve seen Catholics post verses out of context.

For the same reason I’ve already explained in a previous post.

I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, South Bound, but by the tone and tenor of your recent posts, it seems clear to me that you have no interest in having a charitable discussion regarding different beliefs and the reasons therefore. Such posts are much more likely to get you banned than any post simply defending your beliefs ever would have been.

 

[South_Bound]

I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, South Bound, but by the tone and tenor of your recent posts, it seems clear to me that you have no interest in having a charitable discussion regarding different beliefs and the reasons therefore. Such posts are much more likely to get you banned than any post simply defending your beliefs ever would have been.

I’m sorry, but I’m just not going to take the bait.