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edkw55
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Exactly my point Jon S. Right out of the CCC and I didn’t need the CCC to tell me this. Kinda figured it out on my own a long long time age.
So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?
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edkw55
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“I believe God gives us a certain degree of liberty in what we believe the Eucharist and Baptism to be.”
You are right. I stand corrected. I should have thought this through before phrasing this the way I did above.
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edkw55
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For decades I was Baptist with a strong leaning towards Calvinism. The Roman Catholic Church has changed my views on this even though I still remain an Evangelical. I think I am coming to agree with you.It is about our paygrade to make any conclusions about your mom’s eternal destiny, ed.
This is very Catholic.
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PRmerger
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edkw55
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I agree that I that I did a pretty poor job in thinking through how I phased what I said. I stand corrected.
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edkw55
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…and I’ve already admitted that I did a horrible job in thinking through how how phrased my point…“certain degree of liberty”…I was wrong.
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edkw55
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Jon_S_1
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What is it about justification? That we can choose to reject our salvation?
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PRmerger
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Well, as far as authority goes, you do not have a problem, I assume, with submitting to the authority of the CC when she discerned the 27 books of the NT for you and me, yes?
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edkw55
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Looks like I have gotten us off track. There are other threads on the issues of authority, SS, etc.
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Jon_S_1
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I think addressing issues you might have with catholic justification is in line with the thread.
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mackbrislawn
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Thanks for the reply and explanation. I appreciate it.
The added “God picks” was part of a question, how does God pick those He regenerates? It seems the answer as you put it, is God’s foreknowledge. God knows who will allow Him to bend that person’s free will. God searches the minds of the people, and these are the ones God will regenerate in order that they will have faith.
So, regeneration precedes faith. Regeneration, or salvation, comes first, followed by faith. Do I have it right?
However, this creates a problem for those who say we are saved by faith. Evangelicals talk of a “saving faith.” That is, faith is what saves us. But you seem to be saying we are saved before we have faith. Which is the reverse of an evangelical’s salvation by faith alone, that is, we are saved, or regenerated, as a result of our having faith: we are born again because we have faith.
The bolded part above, what is that a quote from?
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edkw55
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As an Evangelical I don’t accept the Catholic Church’s teaching on justification.
sola fide
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PRmerger
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Perhaps if you could articulate what you think the CC’s teaching is on justification we could dialogue further?
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Jon_S_1
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The reason I am asking is this is generally an area Evangelicals and Catholics agree on they just don’t realize sometimes. Different terms and emphasis but at the end of the day far more similar than many evangelicals realize.
For example:
The church readily affirms faith alone when faith includes love, which the Bible constantly shows. It is the idea of “belief alone” that we reject.
Read the whole audience (and really the whole series) here.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
This type of justification was taught in the last evangelical church I attended and it seems many evangelicals affirm this here on the boards. My baptists churches I attended would of coarse reject it believing in OSAS.
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mackbrislawn
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Huh? You mean someone who disbelieves and thinks the gospel is all baloney will go ahead and get baptized anyway? One would think they would walk away shaking their heads.
Therefore, this remark about history and human nature doesn’t make sense.
Except that it does. Water, by its very nature, when you are in it, will wash you whether you like it or not.
Salvation is of course a matter of the Spirit. As far as circumcision, nothing occurs inwardly with circumcision. But not so with baptism. It is a physical sign that something is occurring inwardly as well. That’s why Peter says baptism saves you now. With baptism, you know you are being changed inwardly. You don’t have to depend upon subjective feelings, such as a “burning in the bosom.” Not so much now, but back in Jesus’ day, the people expected spiritual benefits to accompany physical rites, such as baptism. The Jews used water for purification purposes, so they would not be surprised, but would expect, that a ceremonial washing by water would be the means one would be purified of their sins. All of course by means of the resurrection and the Spirit.
Indeed, baptism does not replace what occurs inwardly…it causes what occurs inwardly, with the Spirit. “…water and the Spirit.”
However, as I said before, if one dies before baptism, but with the intent to have his sins washed away by baptism, I’m sure God will count his faith as righteousness. Which means you are right in a fashion.
I don’t know of Catholics who defend coerced baptism. And do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your remarks?
And yes, Jesus died on a cross so we could be washed free of our sins. The Blood of Christ is applied through baptism.
All true! Well said.
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“To treat baptism of insincere people…” I don’t understand this remark. Of course insincere people should not be baptized–no one is saying that they should be. However, God knows who is insincere, and I imagine it does grieve the Holy Spirit.
I don’t follow what is meant by forms and fashions, but I don’t blame you for not wanting forms and fashions, and I want what is real also. And what is more real than baptism? With baptism you have the reality.
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edkw55
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On the surface it may appear that Evangelicals and Catholics agree on the issue of justification generally but in reality nothing could possibly further from the truth. The issue of justification is what has divided us for over 400 hundred years. The CC confuses justification with sanctification. Justification is not an ongoing process it is a one time event that we contribute absolutely nothing to. Justification is by faith alone through grace alone by the finished work of atonement accomplished by Jesus alone. Justification and our salvation is a free gift of God that we contribute nothing to…all the glory goes to God. Am I saying that our works don’t matter? No way! This is sanctification. Sanctification is an on going process for anyone who has truly been justified. Sanctification is growing in holiness, becoming more Christlike, an on going process until we die. I don’t desire to be pleasing to God because I fear punishment or Hell but because I love Him so much and I realize I am not even capable of loving Him at all if if not moved by the Spirit. The CC teaching that we are saved by faith and works I do not accept. We are saved by faith and faith alone. The thought that I can be in a state of grace one minute, commit a mortal sin so I am no longer in a state of grace, I have a heart attach the next minute and go straight to hell? This is not the true Gospel as taught by Jesus and the apostles as recorded in the pages of Scripture. The issue of justification is what has divided Catholics and Evangelicals for over 400 hundred years and continues to divide us today.
Justification = faith and works
Verses
Justification by faith alone.
Ed
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edkw55
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I did read what everyone posted above…trying to cover everything best as I can with one post…ignoring no one…ed
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edkw55
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I realize this thread is not about the issue of authority, SS, etc. but in reality the issues of authority and justification are inseparable as I believe some pointed out above.
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edkw55
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Read the first 5 chapters of Romans. Could Paul possibly be more clear. And what about James? Does he contradict Paul? Is it possible for the Bible to contradict itself? No. What is James really saying about justification?
Ed
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