So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

[edkw55]

As for discussing the CC doctrine of justification the below from Trent would be a good place to start:

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but what to avoid and shun:

Canon I: If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ: let him be anathema.

I completely agree. The remainder of the sentence I disagree.

Ed

 

[edkw55]

So you have a problem with the Church saying people are saved by having a true living faith in Christ??

I completely agree with this.

 

[Jon_S_1]

As for discussing the CC doctrine of justification the below from Trent would be a good place to start:

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but what to avoid and shun:

Canon I: If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ: let him be anathema.

So you do not believe that we are justified through Christ and instead by works ?

Canon III: If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspirtaion of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him: let him be anathema…

so you don’t believe that people need the Holy Spirit to work in them?

Canon VII. If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more greviously he sins, let him be anathema.
.

You believe it is a sin to do good works? To work out sanctification?

Canon IX. If any one saith that by faith alone the impious is justified, in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will, let him be anathema.

So you believe someone who says they have faith but does not back it up or change their life is saved?

Canon X. If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby he merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just: let him be anathema…

You believe that we are justified without the need of Christ?

Canon XI. If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified is only the favor of God: let him be anathema…

so again, you believe that someone who claims faith and can just go on sinning is saved?

Canon XXIV. If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof: let him be anathema.
.

You believe that doing the will of God in good works does nothing for our sanctification (increase in holiness) ?

Canon XXVI. If anyone saith that the just ought not for the good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal reward from God through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if by doing well and keeping the commandments they persevere to the end, let him be anathema.
.

See above again

Canon XXIX. If any one saith, that he who has fallen after baptism is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church—instructed by Christ and his Apostles—has hitherto professed, observed, and taught: let him be anathema.
.

So you do not believe one needs to repent after sinning?

Canon XXX. If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance into the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him): let him be anathema
.

So you believe that our sins have no consequence to the world around us? You believe un pure things can enter heaven? Or do you believe as the church teaches that we are MADE pure and holy in heaven. No more sin, tears, sadness, illness etc. Really made that way not just God looking the other way.

Canon XXXI. If anyone says that the one justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal reward, let him be anathema.
.

so you believe we can sin boldly knowing that we can just work it off?

Canon XXXII. If any one saith, that the good works of one that is. justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life— if so be, however, that he depart in grace,—and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema.

So you believe we hold no responsibility in our choice to good deeds? We are simply puppets to be toyed with by God? That our sanctification does not bear any reward?

 

[SyroMalankara]

I completely agree. The remainder of the sentence I disagree.

Ed

Consider me confused by your statement.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I completely agree. The remainder of the sentence I disagree.

Ed

That makes no sense Ed. The canon is saying if someone says they are saved by works without Christ they are wrong.

 

[stewstew03]

I completely agree. The remainder of the sentence I disagree.

Ed

Ed, I appreciate you hanging around. It’s not clear to me where you disagree with Trent, so I’ll just ask:

• Do you believe it’s impossible for man to save himself by his good works?
• Do you believe man can freely accept the justification God offers him?
• Do you believe man – by the power of the Holy Spirit – can respond to God’s call to love others and bear fruit, and that this is an outward manifestation of his justification?
• Do you believe man – when called by God – experiences an interior transformation by God’s grace?

If you answered ‘yes’ to all of these questions – then you agree with the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church.

If you disagree – I would appreciate an understanding of your position. Perhaps we can begin to engage in a meaningful dialogue…?

:bible1:

 

[edkw55]

As for discussing the CC doctrine of justification the below from Trent would be a good place to start:

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but what to avoid and shun:

Canon I: If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ: let him be anathema.

We cannot be saved by our works. We are not saved by our works cooperating with God’s grace. I understand that the cc teaches that the merits we earn through good works are only possible possible by God’s grace and cooperating with His grace. I beleive that we are saved by faith alone but that a true living faith will always be accompanied by good works But the good works merit or contribute nothing to our salvation. Justification is distinct from sanctification. Sola Fide

 

[edkw55]

We cannot be saved by our works. We are not saved by our works cooperating with God’s grace. I understand that the cc teaches that the merits we earn through good works are only possible possible by God’s grace and cooperating with His grace. I beleive that we are saved by faith alone but that a true living faith will always be accompanied by good works But the good works merit or contribute nothing to our salvation. Justification is distinct from sanctification. Sola Fide

I told you I am didly squat when it comes to putting stuff in works so expect lots of goofs please.

Ed

 

[Jon_S_1]

We cannot be saved by our works. We are not saved by our works cooperating with God’s grace. I understand that the cc teaches that the merits we earn through good works are only possible possible by God’s grace and cooperating with His grace. I beleive that we are saved by faith alone but that a true living faith will always be accompanied by good works But the good works merit or contribute nothing to our salvation. Justification is distinct from sanctification. Sola Fide

Nothing in the canons posted indicate otherwise.

In fact canon 1 explicitly says our justification has nothing to do with works

Do you believe justification=salvation ? Because it doesn’t. Maybe that’s what we need to unpack.

 

[SyroMalankara]

That makes no sense Ed. The canon is saying if someone says they are saved by works without Christ they are wrong.

Seems to me Ed is reading the statement like this:

Canon I: If any one saith, “that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law” - without the grace of God through Jesus Christ - let him be anathema.

This is why 1 reason sola scriptura fails. The other is more nefarious.

 

[stewstew03]

We cannot be saved by our works. We are not saved by our works cooperating with God’s grace. I understand that the cc teaches that the merits we earn through good works are only possible possible by God’s grace and cooperating with His grace. I beleive that we are saved by faith alone but that a true living faith will always be accompanied by good works But the good works merit or contribute nothing to our salvation. Justification is distinct from sanctification. Sola Fide

Ed - first of all, please learn to use the quote feature. I don’t say this to be petty - but it is confusing when you reply and include your own quote – as if to reply to yourself.

Secondly, you are correct – we cannot be saved by our works. We are saved by the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ. Thirdly, any cooperation on our part is only through the Holy Spirit. As Bill Marshner says: “every God-pleasing act of ours remains so rooted in God’s initial gift [of justification] that it is simply an actuation of that gift.”

I’m still not sure where we disagree. You keep saying sola fide – but you qualify this with a “true living faith accompanied by good works.”

Help me out here – where do we disagree??

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[edkw55]

Ed, I appreciate you hanging around. It’s not clear to me where you disagree with Trent, so I’ll just ask:

• Do you believe it’s impossible for man to save himself by his good works?
• Do you believe man can freely accept the justification God offers him?
• Do you believe man – by the power of the Holy Spirit – can respond to God’s call to love others and bear fruit, and that this is an outward manifestation of his justification?
• Do you believe man – when called by God – experiences an interior transformation by God’s grace?

If you answered ‘yes’ to all of these questions – then you agree with the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church.

If you disagree – I would appreciate an understanding of your position. Perhaps we can begin to engage in a meaningful dialogue…?

:bible1:

Only if by this you mean justification by faith alone which I understand you don’t. Everything else in your list…complete agreement.
Highlighted in red…do not agree.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Only if by this you mean justification by faith alone which I understand you don’t. Everything else in your list…complete agreement.
Highlighted in red…do not agree.

 

[edkw55]

Nothing in the canons posted indicate otherwise.

In fact canon 1 explicitly says our justification has nothing to do with works

Do you believe justification=salvation ? Because it doesn’t. Maybe that’s what we need to unpack.

I absolutely believe this.

 

[stewstew03]

Only if by this you mean justification by faith alone which I understand you don’t. Everything else in your list…complete agreement.
Highlighted in red…do not agree.

You don’t think we can reject God?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I absolutely believe this.

So them you believe we are saved at a moment and can never lose our salvation. Our sins our inconsequential.

We believe we are justified by faith in Christ. This means we accept his free gift of salvation. As long as we maintain that faith (good stewards of the treasure as in Christ’s parable) then we are saved at our death.

We are never saved until he calls is home. We are justified when we choose Christ.

 

[edkw55]

Ed - first of all, please learn to use the quote feature. I don’t say this to be petty - but it is confusing when you reply and include your own quote – as if to reply to yourself.

Secondly, you are correct – we cannot be saved by our works. We are saved by the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ. Thirdly, any cooperation on our part is only through the Holy Spirit. As Bill Marshner says: “every God-pleasing act of ours remains so rooted in God’s initial gift [of justification] that it is simply an actuation of that gift.”

I’m still not sure where we disagree. You keep saying sola fide – but you qualify this with a “true living faith accompanied by good works.”

Help me out here – where do we disagree??

From the Westminster Confession on justification:

CHAP. XI. - Of Justification.

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
2. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
3. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to His Father’s justice in their behalf. Yet, in as much as He was given by the Father for them; and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for any thing in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice, and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
4. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.
5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
6. The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament.

 

[Jon_S_1]

From the Westminster Confession on justification:

CHAP. XI. - Of Justification.

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

2. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.

1. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to His Father’s justice in their behalf. Yet, in as much as He was given by the Father for them; and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for any thing in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice, and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
2. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.
3. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
4. The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament.

Ed, #2 bolded is what we teach. There are some issues with other points, but 2 seems to be where your most mistaken.

 

[Porknpie]

Ed, #2 bolded is what we teach. There are some issues with other points, but 2 seems to be where your most mistaken.

1. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.

Very Catholic: Saved by Grace … Only by God’s Grace, through Faith, Working in Love.

PnP

 

[Telstar]

As for discussing the CC doctrine of justification the below from Trent would be a good place to start:

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but what to avoid and shun:

Canon I: If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ: let him be anathema.

Canon III: If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspirtaion of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him: let him be anathema.

Canon VII. If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more greviously he sins, let him be anathema.

Canon IX. If any one saith that by faith alone the impious is justified, in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon X. If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby he merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just: let him be anathema.

Canon XI. If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified is only the favor of God: let him be anathema.

Canon XXIV. If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof: let him be anathema.

Canon XXVI. If anyone saith that the just ought not for the good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal reward from God through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if by doing well and keeping the commandments they persevere to the end, let him be anathema.

Canon XXIX. If any one saith, that he who has fallen after baptism is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church—instructed by Christ and his Apostles—has hitherto professed, observed, and taught: let him be anathema.

Canon XXX. If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance into the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him): let him be anathema

Canon XXXI. If anyone says that the one justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal reward, let him be anathema.

Canon XXXII. If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life— if so be, however, that he depart in grace,—and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema.

Ed, do you realize that all of those statements of Canon listed above are the ones being*** condemned*** by the Church? Do you know what “let him be anathema” means? It means that whoever believes anything listed there, is to be cursed, because all of those statements are wrong.

I think you’re confused. For some reason you think that’s what the Church teaches to be true, but that can’t be further from the truth. That’s actually what the Church says is wrong for anyone to believe.