So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

[Porknpie]

Just as we can’t agree on what catholic is.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John identifies this Church having a proper Eucharist, administered by the Bishops.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

St. Cyprian identifies this Church as Catholic and of one faith … with God’s priests and bishops.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor ”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; **while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests **who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

St. Augustine refers to this Catholic Church as having all the sacraments (all seven)

“You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name Catholic to mean universal, not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments, as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called Catholic because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word’s signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations.” Augustine, To Vincent the Rogatist, 93:7,23 (A.D. 403).

Ben, is this the picture that you have of your church? Does it seem “Catholic” as described by St. Ignatius, St. Cyprian and St. Augustine? If not, why not?

PnP

 

[PRmerger]

Just as we can’t agree on what catholic is.

Oh, I guarantee you that every rational adult knows where to point a stranger who comes to your town and asks, “Where is the nearest Catholic Church?”

No one would point to your church, benhur. You can’t deny the truth of that statement.

I mean no disrespect, but, paraphrasing St. Augustine, "Everyone wants to claim the name ‘Catholic’ ". It’s got the big attraction factor.

But, again, when someone wants to know where the local Catholic Church is (and no one–no one–would say, “Please note that I am speaking with a capital ‘C’ here!”), we all know where he would be directed.

 

[PRmerger]

And yet in the Catholic Church we are given assurance.

Well, we have a moral assurance. But not an absolute assurance.

No one is saved, and knows if he is saved, until he dies. Period.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, I think it is. I’m impressed by how John Piper explains this (even though I have my differences with Piper’s Calvinism).

This is only a snippet of a short article, “The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation.” He goes on to discuss what true assurance of salvation is.

Well, if I understand Piper’s explanation correctly, he sounds like he is espousing more “uncertainty of salvation” to me.

One knows that he is a true believer and not a faux believer, how? I am still not sure what the term “saving faith” means, as it applies to assurance/true believers/faux believers.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, we have a moral assurance. But not an absolute assurance.

No one is saved, and knows if he is saved, until he dies. Period.

Yes I think I made that clear in earlier posts.

We can’t know the future or the choices we will make. But we can be assured in Christ’s promises. We can be assured if we maintain the faith we will finish the race.

That is much different than the Calvinist “not sure if I’m elect” which I was responding largely to.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes I think I made that clear in earlier posts.

We can’t know the future or the choices we will make. But we can be assured in Christ’s promises. We can be assured if we maintain the faith we will finish the race.

That is much different than the Calvinist “not sure if I’m elect” which I was responding largely to.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Well, if I understand Piper’s explanation correctly, he sounds like he is espousing more “uncertainty of salvation” to me.

One knows that he is a true believer and not a faux believer, how? I am still not sure what the term “saving faith” means, as it applies to assurance/true believers/faux believers.

Yep, if you have “saving faith” you are assured of salvation. The only trouble is, you don’t know if you have “saving faith” until you die! Not until you’ve finished the race, because it’s still possible to fall away anytime in your lifetime…

So you go around frantically doing good works to prove to yourself you have saving faith, since those who have “saving faith” automatically do good works. Good works are a sign of saving faith.

But how about those who fall away? It is obvious that happens now and then to those who supposedly had faith. So, how to explain them? Well, they didn’t have “saving faith”!

The unbiblical term “saving faith” then was invented to explain why certain people fell way and didn’t continue in the faith. They fell away, they left because they didn’t have saving faith; they weren’t “saved” to begin with.

Which brings up an interesting observation: if works are sign of salvation, then the absence of works is a sign of absence of salvation.
So, do works cause salvation, or are works a sign of salvation? In either way, it seems works are essential in salvation!

 

[PRmerger]

So, do works cause salvation, or are works a sign of salvation? ** In either way, it seems works are essential in salvation**!

Very Scriptural, this!

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yep, if you have “saving faith” you are assured of salvation. The only trouble is, you don’t know if you have “saving faith” until you die! Not until you’ve finished the race, because it’s still possible to fall away anytime in your lifetime…

So you go around frantically doing good works to prove to yourself you have saving faith, since those who have “saving faith” automatically do good works. Good works are a sign of saving faith.

But how about those who fall away? It is obvious that happens now and then to those who supposedly had faith. So, how to explain them? Well, they didn’t have “saving faith”!

The unbiblical term “saving faith” then was invented to explain why certain people fell way and didn’t continue in the faith. They fell away, they left because they didn’t have saving faith; they weren’t “saved” to begin with.

Which brings up an interesting observation: if works are sign of salvation, then the absence of works is a sign of absence of salvation.
So, do works cause salvation, or are works a sign of salvation? In either way, it seems works are essential in salvation!

This reminds me of the problem on Geneva that arose around those who accepted Calvin’s early teachings.

Everyone was predestined and so why do anything at all. Why go to church why serve why do anything. Their fate was already written.

Losing control of the people Calvin brilliantly came up with this notion of. “Saving faith” and really even more simple. He taught that the elect (saved) would most certainly do good works like Christ did because he has chosen them. This the people started working away trying to convince themselves and others that they were elect.

 

[Porknpie]

This reminds me of the problem on Geneva that arose around those who accepted Calvin’s early teachings.

Everyone was predestined and so why do anything at all. Why go to church why serve why do anything. Their fate was already written.

True dat (ok that is a PR phrase). Don’t even need to hear the preacher preach. Don’t even need the preacher.

 

[Telstar]

"May we be made worthy of the promises of Christ " So subtle and yet, counterintuitive. Very conditional. I don’t know how half of the body is ever going to make to heaven. It it is so plain.

BTW it’s “we may be made worthy” not “may we”… that does kinda sound French tho, mais oui?

You believe that the thought of anyone praying, “that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”, is counter-intuitive? Seriously? Maybe it’s just because it’s connected to a Marian prayer, so that might automatically negate any hope of it gaining ‘worthiness’, in your eyes. Is that your problem with it? Well, since you’re always throwing Paul around as if he was the only Apostle that was ‘worth’ his salt, here’s what Paul says about being “worthy”:
Colossians 1:[9] **“Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you, and to beg that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will, in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding: [10] That you may walk worthy of God, in all things pleasing; being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God:”**It sounds like Paul understands that we should perhaps pray that we may “walk worthy of God”. That sounds very similar in syntax; also a bit conditional, to me. Yes? No? Maybe?

So, which half of the body do you suppose has a better chance of surviving long enough to make it to Heaven, the half that’s still attached to the Head, or the other half that’s been torn up into tiny bits and thrown to the four winds?

You must be water baptized, confirmed, partake of the Eucharist, and fully confessed by an ordained priest. You know many of us don’t get past the baptism. Maybe it is better to be honest and say there is no salvation outside CC and maybe Orthodox

We have 7 Sacraments and only 4 of those (the first 4) that the major portion of Catholics participate in during their lifetime. The Anointing of the Sick might be administered in the case of serious illness, though it’s most commonly administered when there is danger of death (that’s the one when we “call for a Priest”). Holy Orders is only for those who are called by God to become Deacons, Priests or Bishops.
Baptism
Confirmation (or Chrismation)
Holy Eucharist
Penance
Anointing of the Sick
Holy Orders
Matrimony
Many, if not all of those sacraments, can also be found in some form, in non-Catholic Churches.
So, that’s a bit of a red herring, IMHO.

You are correct, there is no salvation ‘outside’ the Catholic Church. The exceptions that are listed in the Catechism are all based on the graces received by those souls, through the prayers and sacrifices offered by the Church and it’s members, for the salvation of all those that are found ‘outside’ the Church. So, we’re all praying for you.

 

[PRmerger]

True dat (ok that is a PR phrase).

 

[ltwin]

Well, if I understand Piper’s explanation correctly, he sounds like he is espousing more “uncertainty of salvation” to me.

What I get from the article is that there are Scriptural bases for assurance and there are unscriptural bases of assurance that people give themselves and teach others. Some people say all you really need to do is acknowledge gospel truth, perhaps even say a sinner’s prayer. But the intellectual affirmation of truths and the repetition of penitential prayer does not equate to faith, repentance or conversion. These are simply forms and fashions. It is false assurance.

There are those who think that while Jesus Christ died for their sins, it’s up to them to keep themselves saved. So, they go about life thinking that it’s all up to them. They attempt a kind of moral reformation; trying in their own power to be righteous. If they live good lives and follow the rules then they will get to heaven. If they don’t then they go to hell. This is works righteousness and false assurance.

There are those who espouse a form of hyper-grace, in which change of life is a nice side effect of conversion but not essential to salvation. The thinking goes that God forgives, so one can do anything and never have to fear being lost. It is antinomianism, the height of presumption, and the opposite extreme of works righteousness. It is also false assurance.

These types of assurance aren’t Scriptural, and they are false. These people have not had a true revelation of Jesus Christ, or if they have, they have fallen into the trap of doing it their own way.

One knows that he is a true believer and not a faux believer, how? I am still not sure what the term “saving faith” means, as it applies to assurance/true believers/faux believers.

As I wrote earlier:

Believers are given assurance by:

The witness of the Spirit. “And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us” (1 John 3:23-24). “And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (Galatians 4:6). “Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself” (1 John 5:10).

The testimony of the Word of God. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:36). “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24). “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

“[If] you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’” (Romans 10:9-13).

Their possession of love for one another. “For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous. Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death” (1 John 3:11-14).

“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us” (1 John 4:7-12).

Their obeying God’s commandments. “And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked” (1 John 2:3-6). “Jesus answered him, ‘If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him’” (John 14:23).

The transformation that takes place. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[PRmerger]

As I wrote earlier:

Originally Posted by ltwin View Post
Believers are given assurance by:

The witness of the Spirit. “And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us” (1 John 3:23-24). “And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (Galatians 4:6). “Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself” (1 John 5:10).

The testimony of the Word of God. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:36). “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24). “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

“[If] you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’” (Romans 10:9-13).

Their possession of love for one another. “For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous. Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death” (1 John 3:11-14).

“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us” (1 John 4:7-12).

Their obeying God’s commandments. “And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked” (1 John 2:3-6). “Jesus answered him, ‘If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him’” (John 14:23).

The transformation that takes place. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

All of the above is exceedingly unhelpful in distinguishing a true believer from a faux believer, ltwin.

For all of the above could apply to people who think they are saved but really aren’t.

Unless it is your position that you could look at a person who has done all of the above and be assured that he’s an actual true believer?

Is that your position?

 

[ltwin]

Yes, we do have a better Covenant, because it provides a more defined means of attaining salvation, which begins with Baptism. Which gives us all the more reason to want to include all of our immediate family in that Covenant, wouldn’t you say?

I actually think attaining salvation begins with faith and repentance. I agree that we should want to include our family in the new covenant, which begins by leading them to the Cross.

We become part of Christ’s Body through Baptism. (Dang, it’s hard to get away from that “B” word, isn’t it?) So, why wouldn’t we want to include our own children?

We should want to include our children. Baptizing them before they are able to have faith and repent of their sin’s, however, is not the means of doing that.

-]Score another +1/2/-] for agreeance… at least on the first part, but then we find that negative on water thing, again. Because, our hearts are circumcised, and our souls are washed clean by the Holy Spirit, in Baptism. It is the outward sign that indicates the actual inner workings of the Grace of God in our soul, all made possible through the workings of the Holy Spirit, invoked by the prayers of blessing that are said.

I agree that baptism is an outward sign of an inner work of grace. I disagree that baptism is what gives us that grace.

Baptism gives us the grace we need to get started, and to keep on going. It makes no difference how old we are or where we start on our path. It’s all about what we do, and how we do it, along the way. As long as we keep growing in the faith and love of God, then we’ll make it through. There’s bound to be bumps along the road, but that’s what reconciliation and penance (with true repentance) is all about. It renews the graces that were given to us in Baptism.

What if you have faith and have lived a life of repentance long before baptism? Does that not indicate that baptism does not necessarily give us the grace we need to get started. I would think the starting point would be hearing the words of Jesus, living and active and penetrating soul and spirit.

This is the biggest problem with a faith based on the Bible, alone. It doesn’t have all of the answers we need. It’s meant to be a rough guide (albeit a very good one), but it doesn’t have all of the ingredients necessary in the “recipe” for salvation. No doubt you can still make it, but it might not turn out to be quite as good as it could be. This is where Holy Tradition fills in the gaps and gives us the confidence we need to do it right.

I understand that. I disagree, but I understand.

“Outward Baptism” cannot be separated from “inner Baptism”. They are one and the same.

I honestly can’t agree with that. God looks on the heart, and I am sure he can tell the difference between someone whose only baptism has been in water.

The Catholic Church has never claimed that we are saved by Baptism, alone. We are saved by our active and ever growing faith and love of God, lived throughout our entire lifetime. Catholics don’t believe in OSAS. We have to persevere through hope, in faith and love, or it’s all for naught.

I’m glad to hear it. I don’t believe in OSAS either. I don’t substantially disagree with the Catholic Church over perseverance and working out our faith. It’s how and when faith begins where I think we disagree mostly.

But, isn’t that what they really are if they’re not Baptized? They are given to us as a free gift from God. Is there anything wrong with our offering their souls back to Him, so He can fill them with His Grace, and guide them in His ways, through their entire life on earth, for His greater glory?

Nothing wrong with that. But you don’t need baptism for that. Baptism is the culmination of their dedication back to God. It’s not the beginning of that process. If we really want to offer them back to God we do so by teaching them what it is to love and fear the Lord and walk in his ways.

Infant Baptism is no less based on faith than adult Baptism is. The faith that begins in Baptism (offered for them by their parents) is nurtured and grows along with the child. Through the later Sacraments (The Sacrament of Penance [Confession], First Holy Communion, Confirmation, Matrimony, etc.) that they receive one step at a time, they will eventually build a sort of ‘stairway to Heaven’.

I find this idea that I can offer my faith in the place of my children and that makes them eligible for baptism, to be honest, disturbing. My parent’s will not be judged for my own sin. They can’t take that condemnation and punishment. They cannot go to the cross for me or die to sin for me or repent for me. My mother cannot birth me again or give me new life and make me a new creation. So, I find it odd that their faith can replace my own while I passively receive baptism. Jesus Christ is the only person on whose merit and righteousness my salvation can be based.

 

[ltwin]

All of the above is exceedingly unhelpful in distinguishing a true believer from a faux believer, ltwin.

For all of the above could apply to people who think they are saved but really aren’t.

Unless it is your position that you could look at a person who has done all of the above and be assured that he’s an actual true believer?

Is that your position?

I don’t believe any of us are qualified to truly determine between wheat and weeds. We are actually told by Jesus to let them grow together and let him sort them out. So, if you are looking for me to tell you how evangelicals tell true from fake believers, then you will be disappointed.

I can look at someone and see if they “follow the rules.” That doesn’t actually prove that someone is saved, because Jesus Christ didn’t come to make us “good people.” And of course, things like the witness of the Spirit are internal and cannot be known or discerned by people looking for outward signs.

Likewise, I can look at someone who claims to be a follower of Christ and see him doing things contrary to what Christ taught. I can tell him in love that he is wrong and call him to repentance. But can I ever truly know with certainty if he is a fake believer or a true believer who had a weakness and needs grace and the ministry of restoration?

All we can do is preach the truth in the power of the Spirit and have faith that the Holy Spirit will convict people of sin and righteousness and reveal Jesus Christ to them. And that his kindness leads them to repentance.

I don’t need assurance that PRmerger is saved. That is between you and God. I do want assurance that I am saved.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe any of us are qualified to truly determine between wheat and weeds.

Egg-zactly.

I can look at someone and see if they “follow the rules.” That doesn’t actually prove that someone is saved, because Jesus Christ didn’t come to make us “good people.” And of course, things like the witness of the Spirit are internal and cannot be known or discerned by people looking for outward signs.

Indeed.

And internal signs are also not reliable.

For you have already acknowledged that someone can think he’s a true believer but actually be a faux believer.

Thus, this means that nothing provides assurance of salvation–neither external nor internal signs.

Likewise, I can look at someone who claims to be a follower of Christ and see him doing things contrary to what Christ taught. I can tell him in love that he is wrong and call him to repentance. But can I ever truly know with certainty if he is a fake believer or a true believer who had a weakness and needs grace and the ministry of restoration?

Yup.

All we can do is preach the truth in the power of the Spirit and have faith that the Holy Spirit will convict people of sin and righteousness and reveal Jesus Christ to them. And that his kindness leads them to repentance.

I don’t need assurance that PRmerger is saved. That is between you and God.** I do want assurance that I am saved**.

Ah, yes. We all would like that assurance, to be sure.

And yet, as you have logically presented, none of us has it.

 

[ltwin]

Egg-zactly.

Indeed.

And internal signs are also not reliable.

For you have already acknowledged that someone can think he’s a true believer but actually be a faux believer.

Thus, this means that nothing provides assurance of salvation–neither external nor internal signs.

Yup.

Ah, yes. We all would like that assurance, to be sure.

And yet, as you have logically presented, none of us has it.

Of course we have it. We are given assurance by the Spirit, by the Word, and by the love of Christ that motivates us to good works. Just because people can deceive themselves does not mean that authentic assurance does not exist.

Neither is authentic assurance a license to presume. On the contrary, it should keep us ever humble with our eyes always on the Cross. Scripture in more than one place tells us to watch and pray lest we ourselves fall.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Of course we have it. We are given assurance by the Spirit, by the Word, and by the love of Christ that motivates us to good works. Just because people can deceive themselves does not mean that authentic assurance does not exist.

Ltwin,

I think something your missing is how baptism and confirmation go hand in hand.

I will try to give you a comparison.

Evangelicals generally “dedicate” their kids. But this does nothing for the child directly. Yet you do it. Later the children can “receive Christ and be baptized as a sign of that”

Catholics baptize their kids. Later the children confirm their baptism in confirmation by professing and publicly proclaiming their faith.

Do you see the similarities?

If you believe baptism is a simple symbol why should you care that it is given to a child?

How does it differ than the blessing and prayer and commitment of a child dedication?

Really on the surface, strip away the theology and look at it plain for a moment.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I agree that baptism is an outward sign of an inner work of grace. I disagree that baptism is what gives us that grace.

True, baptism is an outward sign of an inner work of grace. But, here is the question, how can baptism be an outward sign if it is not what gives us that grace?