So is it impossible to argue against same-sex marriage?

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Then we need to drop all the laws that endorse any belief system except the secular one. 😦

recommended reading - What Civilization Owes to the Church

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.
Any “specific” religious belief system. Beliefs common to all faiths and to people without a faith at all wouldn’t go anywhere.

Here’s an example. A states’s population is overwhelmingly Muslim, and since Muslims do not eat pork, they pass a law banning any pork products from being sold within the boundries of the state. The Catholics object to this, because they like a good pork roast after Mass and they don’t want to have to drive out of state to get one… Case goes to the Supeme Court. What result? The law banning pork products gets overturned because it establishes a law based on the beliefs of ONE faith and disregards the interests of those who do not share that faith. It violates the “no establishment” clause. It also interferes with Commerce, but that’s another clause.
 
It’s a testament to the evil afoot in our times that this even has to be stated. If God rains down fire upon us, it’s our fault for being weak in the face of such evil.

Tolerance of evil is a choice to support evil.
You need to establish a government based on the laws of the Catholic church. Then every law will conform to Catholic teaching and you’ll never have to deal with anyone who differs from you.

If you live in the US, that just isn’t going to happen.
 
Any “specific” religious belief system. Beliefs common to all faiths and to people without a faith at all wouldn’t go anywhere.

Here’s an example. A states’s population is overwhelmingly Muslim, and since Muslims do not eat pork, they pass a law banning any pork products from being sold within the boundries of the state. The Catholics object to this, because they like a good pork roast after Mass and they don’t want to have to drive out of state to get one… Case goes to the Supeme Court. What result? The law banning pork products gets overturned because it establishes a law based on the beliefs of ONE faith and disregards the interests of those who do not share that faith. It violates the “no establishment” clause. It also interferes with Commerce, but that’s another clause.
Isn’t that a state’s rights issue?

However, if the majority of the US becomes Muslim and the their majority elects officials who would declare this or that Sunday no stores would be open, then those laws would be enacted.
 
Some people have asked for secular reasons to oppose gay marriage. Not all relationships are equal in the eyes of the state. For example, my relationship with my guinea pigs may be important to me, but the state could care less. Why? Animals don’t pay taxes or contribute anything to the maintenance of the state other than giving me personal happiness. Platonic friendships are also not important for the same reason. The state does care about the continuation of the nation via the creation of new citizens to form a new tax base, become workers, and serve in the army. The only way to do this is to through immigration or for native-born citizens to have children. Until recently, it was understood that a stable two-parent opposite sex home was the best environment to raise children. The state also has an interest in fostering this kind of environment to prevent anti-social behavior on the part of the children in question. Communities in which stable traditional families are lacking tend to be prone to crime.

The question has also been asked of, “How will same-sex marriage affect my heterosexual relationship?” The answer is societal, rather than individual. Once non-procreative relationships are valued to the same extent as traditional marriage, there is less of an impetus to get married; it’s just one “lifestyle choice” out of many to choose from. This in turn leads to a downturn in births, a shrinking tax base, a labor shortage, and a breakdown in community.

This was prefigured by the societal acceptance of cohabitation. Once that was seen as normal, there was no reason to oppose same-sex marriage. For example, in low-income black areas, traditional marriage is almost non-existent and one man having babies with lots of different women is the norm. Because this is the norm, children are raised to think that this is an acceptable state of affairs and affects all relationships in that area. It’s the same way with same-sex marriage. Since the law has a pedagogical effect, the state of California is saying that same-sex marriage it’s just one good choice out of many.

Also, the analogy between inter-racial marriage and same-sex marriage is specious. If we look at any definition of marriage during the period of Jim Crow (c. 1880 - 1966), race is not going to be mentioned. For example, the definition of an old dictionary I have (I can’t be more specific, the cover and some of the first few pages are missing, but I do know that it’s at least 40 years old) says that it is, “1. a. the state of being married b. the mutual relationship whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of maintaining a family. 2. the act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected…” Note that this definition does not mention whether the man and woman in question were of the same or different races. This is because the race of spouses is not important to the fundemental definition of marriage, whereas the sex of the participants is. Similarly, the 1891 (not a banner year for race relations) edition of the Baltimore Catechism defines the sacrament of Matrimony as, “the sacrament which unites a Christian man and Christian woman in lawful marriage.” It did not say a “sacrament that unites an Irishman or Irishwoman” or a “sacrament that unites a Chinese man and Chinese woman.” The race of the spouse is a matter of preference, not a essential to the sacrament or the definition of marriage as such.

The point of banning inter-racial marriage in some states (it was not a universal phenomenon in the US, and mostly in the South) was to dehumanize blacks and other similarly disenfranchised groups. No segregationist or black nationalist claimed to be “defending marriage” by opposing inter-racial marriage, although they did claim to defend white/black womanhood. Inter-racial marriage is essentially “in-group out-group marriage” sort of like a Norman marrying an Anglo-Saxon during the Middle Ages.
 
you’re back to “that’s the way we’ve always done it becuase God says so”. The same arguments were used to uphold slavery, uphold bans on interracial marriage, deny women the right to vote and keep black and white children in separate schools. Just because we’ve always done it, and just because God says so doesn’t make it right according to civil law.
God never supported slavery.

Have you come fresh from the ACLU? Or are you just playing Devil’s Advocate?
 
Some people have asked for secular reasons to oppose gay marriage. Not all relationships are equal in the eyes of the state. For example, my relationship with my guinea pigs may be important to me, but the state could care less. Why? Animals don’t pay taxes or contribute anything to the maintenance of the state other than giving me personal happiness. Platonic friendships are also not important for the same reason. The state does care about the continuation of the nation via the creation of new citizens to form a new tax base, become workers, and serve in the army. The only way to do this is to through immigration or for native-born citizens to have children. Until recently, it was understood that a stable two-parent opposite sex home was the best environment to raise children. The state also has an interest in fostering this kind of environment to prevent anti-social behavior on the part of the children in question. Communities in which stable traditional families are lacking tend to be prone to crime.

The question has also been asked of, “How will same-sex marriage affect my heterosexual relationship?” The answer is societal, rather than individual. Once non-procreative relationships are valued to the same extent as traditional marriage, there is less of an impetus to get married; it’s just one “lifestyle choice” out of many to choose from. This in turn leads to a downturn in births, a shrinking tax base, a labor shortage, and a breakdown in community.

This was prefigured by the societal acceptance of cohabitation. Once that was seen as normal, there was no reason to oppose same-sex marriage. For example, in low-income black areas, traditional marriage is almost non-existent and one man having babies with lots of different women is the norm. Because this is the norm, children are raised to think that this is an acceptable state of affairs and affects all relationships in that area. It’s the same way with same-sex marriage. Since the law has a pedagogical effect, the state of California is saying that same-sex marriage it’s just one good choice out of many.

Also, the analogy between inter-racial marriage and same-sex marriage is specious. If we look at any definition of marriage during the period of Jim Crow (c. 1880 - 1966), race is not going to be mentioned. For example, the definition of an old dictionary I have (I can’t be more specific, the cover and some of the first few pages are missing, but I do know that it’s at least 40 years old) says that it is, “1. a. the state of being married b. the mutual relationship whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of maintaining a family. 2. the act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected…” Note that this definition does not mention whether the man and woman in question were of the same or different races. This is because the race of spouses is not important to the fundemental definition of marriage, whereas the sex of the participants is. Similarly, the 1891 (not a banner year for race relations) edition of the Baltimore Catechism defines the sacrament of Matrimony as, “the sacrament which unites a Christian man and Christian woman in lawful marriage.” It did not say a “sacrament that unites an Irishman or Irishwoman” or a “sacrament that unites a Chinese man and Chinese woman.” The race of the spouse is a matter of preference, not a essential to the sacrament or the definition of marriage as such.

The point of banning inter-racial marriage in some states (it was not a universal phenomenon in the US, and mostly in the South) was to dehumanize blacks and other similarly disenfranchised groups. No segregationist or black nationalist claimed to be “defending marriage” by opposing inter-racial marriage, although they did claim to defend white/black womanhood. Inter-racial marriage is essentially “in-group out-group marriage” sort of like a Norman marrying an Anglo-Saxon during the Middle Ages.
Look up truth in your old dictionary and look it up today.
 
There is objective evidence that children are harmed by divorce, children are harmed by parental indifference, children are harmed by overworked parents, children are harmed by parents who have to move frequently for their jobs, children are harmed by military parents being sent overseas…do we make all those things illegal or punish parents by taking away marriage benefits if they do those things?
?
These things do less harm to kids, generally, than being raised in same-sex households. The evidence so far is clear on this, and homosexual families are still a social experiment with very little interest by the medical communities to do any more thoughtful analysis on the subject.

“Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Well worth any Catholic’s time to read pope John Paul II’s directive on the subject…
 
God never supported slavery.

Have you come fresh from the ACLU? Or are you just playing Devil’s Advocate?
Yes, I am a member of the ACLU. The ACLU defends our right to practice our religion as we choose. If you actually knew anything about the organization you’d know that.

If you’re not afraid of having your preexisting prejudices shattered, you might want to take a look at these cases from 2007 alone:
The ACLU of Florida (2007) argued in favor of the right of Christians to protest against a gay pride event held in the City of St. Petersburg. The City had proposed limiting opposition speech, including speech motivated by religious beliefs, to restricted “free speech zones.” After receiving the ACLU’s letter, the City revised its proposed ordinance.
The ACLU of Oregon (2007) defended the right of students at a private religious school not to be pressured to violate their Sabbath day by playing in a state basketball tournament. The Oregon School Activities Association scheduled state tournament games on Saturdays, the recognized Sabbath of students and faculty of the Portland Adventist Academy. The ACLU argued that the school’s team, having successfully made it to the tournament, should not be required to violate their religious beliefs in order to participate.
The ACLU of Eastern Missouri (2007) represents Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, whose religious beliefs lead her to condemn homosexuality as a sin and insist that God is punishing the United States. The protests in which she has been involved have been confrontational and have involved funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. While the ACLU does not endorse her message, it does believe that she has both religious and free-speech rights to express her viewpoint criticizing homosexuality.
The ACLU of Wisconsin (2007) filed a friend-of-the-court brief arguing that individual pharmacists should be able to refuse to fill prescriptions that violate their religious scruples, provided that patients can obtain prescriptions from willing providers in a safe and timely manner.
The ACLU of New Jersey (2007) defended the right of an elementary school student who was prohibited from singing “Awesome God” in a voluntary, after-school talent show for which students selected their own material. The ACLU submitted a friend-of-the-Court brief. After a favorable settlement was reached for the student, the federal lawsuit was dismissed.
 
The ACLU of Eastern Missouri (2007) represents Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, whose religious beliefs lead her to condemn homosexuality as a sin and insist that God is punishing the United States. The protests in which she has been involved have been confrontational and have involved funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. While the ACLU does not endorse her message, it does believe that she has both religious and free-speech rights to express her viewpoint criticizing homosexuality.
Umm… I hope you know the significance of the emboldened selection.
 
Umm… I hope you know the significance of the emboldened selection.
yes, that the ACLU will even defend the rights of people who do the most hateful things in the name of their faith. I find the Westboro Baptist Church and everything they do disgusting and beyond objectionable. However, if I am to expect that my right to practice my faith and speak about my faith will be defended I must support everyone else’s right to do the same-no matter how distaseful I find it.
 
Yes, I am a member of the ACLU. The ACLU defends our right to practice our religion as we choose. If you actually knew anything about the organization you’d know that.

If you’re not afraid of having your preexisting prejudices shattered, you might want to take a look at these cases from 2007 alone:
Then you’re well aware the ACLU is an organization whose true mission is to denude America of anything that smacks of religion.

Marxists everywhere are grateful to you.
 
Then you’re well aware the ACLU is an organization whose true mission is to denude America of anything that smacks of religion.

Marxists everywhere are grateful to you.
Guess it was too much trouble to actually read the cases from this year alone where the ACLU has DEFENDED the rights of Americans to practice their faith. Even when their faith tells them to preach hatred for others as in the case of the Westboro Baptist Church, the ACLU still defends their rights.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose…🤷
 
Those who know what the ACLU’s origins are cannot be so easily fooled.
 
Those who know what the ACLU’s origins are cannot be so easily fooled.
No matter how much some here dislike it-we have a Constitution in this country that protects the rights of ALL people, even the non-Catholics. Defending other people’s right to practice or not practice the religion of their choice is the best way to protect my right to practice mine.

If you want to continue to believe the propaganda, that’s your right. I did for a long time too, until I actually got interested in reading facts instead of polemics.
 
No matter how much some here dislike it-we have a Constitution in this country that protects the rights of ALL people, even the non-Catholics. Defending other people’s right to practice or not practice the religion of their choice is the best way to protect my right to practice mine.

If you want to continue to believe the propaganda, that’s your right. I did for a long time too, until I actually got interested in reading facts instead of polemics.
There was an interesting story on NPR this morning about the clash between gay marriage and religious liberties. Religious groups that oppose gay marriage are being sued for discrimination and are losing. Even conservative lawyers are saying that religious groups have almost no chance of winning these kinds of lawsuits. So, I would say that there is a definite clash between religious liberty and gay marriage.
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486340
 
No matter how much some here dislike it-we have a Constitution in this country that protects the rights of ALL people, even the non-Catholics. Defending other people’s right to practice or not practice the religion of their choice is the best way to protect my right to practice mine.

If you want to continue to believe the propaganda, that’s your right. I did for a long time too, until I actually got interested in reading facts instead of polemics.
The ACLU was founded by Marxists. They were never about ‘protecting’ our Constitutional rights, but turning the USA into another dreary socialist state, rendering unto Caesar what is God’s.
Roger Baldwin and Crystal Eastman founded the ACLU in 1920 along with three other organizations dedicated to the most leftist of causes. The histories of these two individuals belie their claims of patriotism and respect for the Constitution.
Baldwin openly sought the utter destruction of American society. Fifteen years after the founding of the ACLU, Baldwin wrote:
I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself … I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal.
The ACLU has tried to rewrite our Constitution many times to fit their own agenda, as have many radical judges. Their biggest rewrite? “Seperation of Church and State” The ACLU has the entire country believing this is a law… but it is NOWHERE in the Constitution. The First Amendment states:
“Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
This does not mean that there can be no religion in government. It means that the goverment cannot force the country to follow one religion (which is what our Founding Fathers were escaping from in Europe).
The second part of that means that the goverment can make no laws saying that people can’t practice their own religion… whether in public or in private.
We know who you are and what the ACLU represents: the systematic destruction of this country’s values. The very fact that homosexual marriage is in the public discourse proves this beyond any sane person’s ability to doubt.
 
The ACLU was founded by Marxists. They were never about ‘protecting’ our Constitutional rights, but turning the USA into another dreary socialist state, rendering unto Caesar what is God’s.

We know who you are and what the ACLU represents: the systematic destruction of this country’s values. The very fact that homosexual marriage is in the public discourse proves this beyond any sane person’s ability to doubt.
Sources for these quotes please?
 
There was an interesting story on NPR this morning about the clash between gay marriage and religious liberties. Religious groups that oppose gay marriage are being sued for discrimination and are losing. Even conservative lawyers are saying that religious groups have almost no chance of winning these kinds of lawsuits. So, I would say that there is a definite clash between religious liberty and gay marriage.
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486340
I would never deny the clash-first of all, I live in NJ and I know all about the Ocean Grove case. In that case, it’s a situation of the Ocean Grove association wanting to have it both ways. They want the benefit of being able to collect money for public use and collect state and federal money for upkeep, but they also want to decide which public they allow to use it.

Any time a religious organization takes money from the federal or state government-no matter how small of an amount they take-they open themselves up for discrimination suits.

There are laws regarding pharmacists and other medical professionals regarding not performing abortions or selling birth control, so I’m kind of surprised by the cases where individuals who objected to involvement in same sex marriages. I would have thought the same rules would apply, as in the case of the civil servant who refused to perform the ceremony. I was under the impression that as long as there were other options available, the employee was not violating the law by opting out.

There was a case in a Target where Muslims refused to work as cashiers because they would have to sell bacon, and they were simply assigned other duties and other employees worked as cashiers.
 
The ACLU is destructive to the fabric of our society. Christians must recognize Satan as the source - the instigator - when the end results of an organization’s efforts are only “to kill, to steal, and to destroy.” All we need to is examine the (rotten) fruit.
Following are some of the stated goals of the ACLU, from its own published Policy Issues:
  • the legalization of prostitution (Policy 211);
  • the defense of all pornography, including CHILD PORN, as “free speech” (Policy 4);
  • the decriminalization and legalization of all drugs (Policy 210);
  • the promotion of homosexuality (Policy 264);
  • the opposition of rating of music and movies (Policy 18);
  • opposition against parental consent of minors seeking abortion (Policy 262);
  • opposition of informed consent preceding abortion procedures (Policy 263);
  • opposition of spousal consent preceding abortion (Policy 262);
  • opposition of parental choice in children’s education (Policy 80)
    – not to mention the defense and promotion of euthanasia, polygamy, government control of church institutions, gun control, tax-funded abortion, birth limitation, etc. (Policies 263, 133, 402, 47, 261, 323, 271, 91, 85).
Truth is, liberals are unwilling to simply let others be, but rather seek to impose their UNgodliness upon Christians. It is a mission to them and other atheists to pervert the freedoms of others. The ACLU does not run to the defense of those who are harmed; it aggressively seeks out opportunities to corrupt pure freedoms.
How does the ACLU pay for its activities?
George Grant, author of “Trial and Error,” puts the ACLU’s annual budget (1993) at $14 MILLION (FOURTEEN MILLION DOLLARS) - much of which is "SUPPLIED BY THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER through the Federal program mandated by the Civil Rights Attorneys’ Fee Awards Act of 1976. If the ACLU wins a case that involves a public institution, for instance, the organization collects the full legal fees of its attorneys even though those attorneys offered their services pro bono (without charge).
dianedew.com/aclu.htm
 
Some people have asked for secular reasons to oppose gay marriage. Not all relationships are equal in the eyes of the state. For example, my relationship with my guinea pigs may be important to me, but the state could care less. Why? Animals don’t pay taxes or contribute anything to the maintenance of the state other than giving me personal happiness. Platonic friendships are also not important for the same reason.
So a homosexual is an animal now? Wow that was creative.
The state does care about the continuation of the nation via the creation of new citizens to form a new tax base, become workers, and serve in the army. The only way to do this is to through immigration or for native-born citizens to have children.
So the state shouldn’t care about sterile couples, or infertile couples, because they are not going to contribute to the creation of new citizens.
The question has also been asked of, “How will same-sex marriage affect my heterosexual relationship?” The answer is societal, rather than individual. Once non-procreative relationships are valued to the same extent as traditional marriage, there is less of an impetus to get married; it’s just one “lifestyle choice” out of many to choose from. This in turn leads to a downturn in births, a shrinking tax base, a labor shortage, and a breakdown in community.
Homosexual people do not choose to be homosexual, it is not a lifestyle. Is homosexuality now linked to the decline in birthrate?
I would suggest not, so what will change in the future?


I am not out to convert people to homosexuality. I live as a chaste Catholic SSA man. This is my calling. I live according to the laws of the church and the bible. How is my living harming yours? I am active in the ministry of the Church, leading a quiet life, living as Jesus asks me to.

I believe two SSA people can live together and love each other as deeply as an OSA couple can, and can support each other, and live a chaste life following the teachings of Christ. I support the community through my taxes, through charity, and through working in my parish community. Please tell me how my contribution to society is less?

I am not arguing against church teaching. I think though, SSA people don’t need sacramental marriage, nor state marriage, but rather laws that protect them and recognise they have a relationship. This is important for financial reasons, and also for decision making reasons (if one was to get sick). There is no need to mimic marriage.

Josh
 
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