So is it impossible to argue against same-sex marriage?

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Fitswimmer said:
When you can’t debate intelligently, resort to insults. That tells me all I need to know.

Have a nice day.
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Did you read what this guy posted? You ignoring this is all we need to know about your position. So sad.

From the Vatican:

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…unions_en.html

CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION
TO UNIONS
BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

INTRODUCTION
  1. In recent years, various questions relating to homosexuality have been addressed with some frequency by Pope John Paul II and by the relevant Dicasteries of the Holy See.(1) Homosexuality is a troubling moral and social phenomenon, even in those countries where it does not present significant legal issues. It gives rise to greater concern in those countries that have granted or intend to grant – legal recognition to homosexual unions, which may include the possibility of adopting children. The present Considerations do not contain new doctrinal elements; they seek rather to reiterate the essential points on this question and provide arguments drawn from reason which could be used by Bishops in preparing more specific interventions, appropriate to the different situations throughout the world, aimed at protecting and promoting the dignity of marriage, the foundation of the family, and the stability of society, of which this institution is a constitutive element. The present Considerations are also intended to give direction to Catholic politicians by indicating the approaches to proposed legislation in this area which would be consistent with Christian conscience.(2) Since this question relates to the natural moral law, the arguments that follow are addressed not only to those who believe in Christ, but to all persons committed to promoting and defending the common good of society.
I. THE NATURE OF MARRIAGE
AND ITS INALIENABLE CHARACTERISTICS
  1. The Church’s teaching on marriage and on the complementarity of the sexes reiterates a truth that is evident to right reason and recognized as such by all the major cultures of the world. Marriage is not just any relationship between human beings. It was established by the Creator with its own nature, essential properties and purpose.(3) No ideology can erase from the human spirit the certainty that marriage exists solely between a man and a woman, who by mutual personal gift, proper and exclusive to themselves, tend toward the communion of their persons. In this way, they mutually perfect each other, in order to cooperate with God in the procreation and upbringing of new human lives.
  2. The natural truth about marriage was confirmed by the Revelation contained in the biblical accounts of creation, an expression also of the original human wisdom, in which the voice of nature itself is heard. There are three fundamental elements of the Creator’s plan for marriage, as narrated in the Book of Genesis.
In the first place, man, the image of God, was created “male and female” (Gen 1:27). Men and women are equal as persons and complementary as male and female. Sexuality is something that pertains to the physical-biological realm and has also been raised to a new level – the personal level – where nature and spirit are united.
.
.
.
II. POSITIONS ON THE PROBLEM
OF HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS
  1. Faced with the fact of homosexual unions, civil authorities adopt different positions. At times they simply tolerate the phenomenon; at other times they advocate legal recognition of such unions, under the pretext of avoiding, with regard to certain rights, discrimination against persons who live with someone of the same sex. In other cases, they favour giving homosexual unions legal equivalence to marriage properly so-called, along with the legal possibility of adopting children.
Where the government’s policy is de facto tolerance and there is no explicit legal recognition of homosexual unions, it is necessary to distinguish carefully the various aspects of the problem. Moral conscience requires that, in every occasion, Christians give witness to the whole moral truth, which is contradicted both by approval of homosexual acts and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons. Therefore, discreet and prudent actions can be effective; these might involve: unmasking the way in which such tolerance might be exploited or used in the service of ideology; stating clearly the immoral nature of these unions; reminding the government of the need to contain the phenomenon within certain limits so as to safeguard public morality and, above all, to avoid exposing young people to erroneous ideas about sexuality and marriage that would deprive them of their necessary defences and contribute to the spread of the phenomenon. Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

This is pretty self explanatory and should not need a lot of discussion.
 
Fitswimmer said:
How do you know what choices I or anyone else have made regarding sexuality??? How DARE you make such assumptions about anyone!

This is EXACTLY the attitude that I have been talking about. This person, who knows NOTHING about my life has already decided what is going to happen to people after death. The last time I checked God had not delegated the decision of who gets into Heaven to anyone on earth.
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Well in that case he should send out a memo to everyone in the world to announce that sinful lifestyles are no longer sinful. Until then, as I understand it, willingly living in sin and not [sincerely] repenting is probably not going to score points with God. I’m afraid that you didn’t read my hypothetical conversation with God post fully and decided to attack me based on whatever conclusions you drew on your own. I did not accuse you of having a sinful lifestyle or being more sinful than me based on your homosexuality.
 
I AM NOT REFUTING THE CHURCH’S POSITION ON GAY MARRIAGE. I AM NOT REFUTING THE CHURCH’S POSITION ON HOMOSEXUAL ACTS.

I AM REFUTING THE TREATMENT OF HOMOSEXUALS BY MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH.

Are we clear now?
 
Fitswimmer said:
I AM NOT REFUTING THE CHURCH’S POSITION ON GAY MARRIAGE. I AM NOT REFUTING THE CHURCH’S POSITION ON HOMOSEXUAL ACTS.

I AM REFUTING THE TREATMENT OF HOMOSEXUALS BY MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH.

Are we clear now?
Click to expand...
As I have stated before a chaste homosexual has no need to declare themselves to anyone. If one comes across as an activist it does not surprise me that Church members would react. I guess I still don’t understand this.
 
buffalo said:
As I have stated before a chaste homosexual has no need to declare themselves to anyone. If one comes across as an activist it does not surprise me that Church members would react. I guess I still don’t understand this.
Click to expand...
Who says anyone is an activist?
For those chaste homosexuals who are living quietly, many of the discussions on this forum have quite hateful and hurtful language.

The truth is that many Catholics don’t have any compassion for the homosexual Catholic. I follow the calling of the Catechism of a life of Chastity and obedience to the Church, and I expect that other members of the Church follow the order of the Catechism to treat homosexual Catholics with the same dignity and compassion you would show to any other human being.

Josh
 
sydcatholic80 said:
Who says anyone is an activist?
For those chaste homosexuals who are living quietly, many of the discussions on this forum have quite hateful and hurtful language.

The truth is that many Catholics don’t have any compassion for the homosexual Catholic. I follow the calling of the Catechism of a life of Chastity and obedience to the Church, and I expect that other members of the Church follow the order of the Catechism to treat homosexual Catholics with the same dignity and compassion you would show to any other human being.

Josh
Click to expand...
I respect that you are able to live chastely. I do not see where homosexuals are treated badly. Where I see an argument is where there is contention on Church teachings.
 
buffalo said:
As I have stated before a chaste homosexual has no need to declare themselves to anyone. If one comes across as an activist it does not surprise me that Church members would react. I guess I still don’t understand this.
Click to expand...
I didn’t declare myself for years. Never said a thing. Then I was driven out of a parish that I was part of for 20 years because of gossip. Not because I was in an active relationship, because I wasn’t. Not because I stood up in meetings and announced my sexuality. Because some Church members decided because I didn’t “dress like a girl” and was friends with another woman that we were in a lesbian relationship. Even though my priest was very supportive, I still had to leave rather than continue to expose this woman to problems and to stop the comments.

I’ve told that story before here, and it’s not the only time that well meaning Catholics have decided to tell me and other homosexuals what is good for us-while knowing NOTHING about our private lives.

As a consequence, I’ve begun to come out in the interest of trying to make Catholics see how much hurt and damage their well meaning corrections and admonishment can cause.

I am an activist for fair, just and humane treatment for homosexuals. I am an activist to stop harassment, meddling, gossip and hatred towards homosexuals by people who claim to be “judging the sin and not the sinner”.

I’m also an activist for the Constitution and the First Amendment.
 
Fitswimmer said:
I didn’t declare myself for years. Never said a thing. Then I was driven out of a parish that I was part of for 20 years because of gossip. Not because I was in an active relationship, because I wasn’t. Not because I stood up in meetings and announced my sexuality. Because some Church members decided because I didn’t “dress like a girl” and was friends with another woman that we were in a lesbian relationship. Even though my priest was very supportive, I still had to leave rather than continue to expose this woman to problems and to stop the comments.

I’ve told that story before here, and it’s not the only time that well meaning Catholics have decided to tell me and other homosexuals what is good for us-while knowing NOTHING about our private lives.

As a consequence, I’ve begun to come out in the interest of trying to make Catholics see how much hurt and damage their well meaning corrections and admonishment can cause.

I am an activist for fair, just and humane treatment for homosexuals. I am an activist to stop harassment, meddling, gossip and hatred towards homosexuals by people who claim to be “judging the sin and not the sinner”.

I’m also an activist for the Constitution and the First Amendment.
Click to expand...
Did you read what this guy posted? You ignoring this is all we need to know about your position. So sad.

From the Vatican:

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…unions_en.html

CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION
TO UNIONS
BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

I. THE NATURE OF MARRIAGE
AND ITS INALIENABLE CHARACTERISTICS
  1. The Church’s teaching on marriage and on the complementarity of the sexes reiterates a truth that is evident to right reason and recognized as such by all the major cultures of the world. Marriage is not just any relationship between human beings. It was established by the Creator with its own nature, essential properties and purpose.(3) No ideology can erase from the human spirit the certainty that marriage exists solely between a man and a woman, who by mutual personal gift, proper and exclusive to themselves, tend toward the communion of their persons. In this way, they mutually perfect each other, in order to cooperate with God in the procreation and upbringing of new human lives.
  2. The natural truth about marriage was confirmed by the Revelation contained in the biblical accounts of creation, an expression also of the original human wisdom, in which the voice of nature itself is heard. There are three fundamental elements of the Creator’s plan for marriage, as narrated in the Book of Genesis.
In the first place, man, the image of God, was created “male and female” (Gen 1:27). Men and women are equal as persons and complementary as male and female. Sexuality is something that pertains to the physical-biological realm and has also been raised to a new level – the personal level – where nature and spirit are united.
.
.
.
II. POSITIONS ON THE PROBLEM
OF HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS
  1. Faced with the fact of homosexual unions, civil authorities adopt different positions. At times they simply tolerate the phenomenon; at other times they advocate legal recognition of such unions, under the pretext of avoiding, with regard to certain rights, discrimination against persons who live with someone of the same sex. In other cases, they favour giving homosexual unions legal equivalence to marriage properly so-called, along with the legal possibility of adopting children.
Where the government’s policy is de facto tolerance and there is no explicit legal recognition of homosexual unions, it is necessary to distinguish carefully the various aspects of the problem. Moral conscience requires that, in every occasion, Christians give witness to the whole moral truth, which is contradicted both by approval of homosexual acts and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons. Therefore, discreet and prudent actions can be effective; these might involve: unmasking the way in which such tolerance might be exploited or used in the service of ideology; stating clearly the immoral nature of these unions; reminding the government of the need to contain the phenomenon within certain limits so as to safeguard public morality and, above all, to avoid exposing young people to erroneous ideas about sexuality and marriage that would deprive them of their necessary defences and contribute to the spread of the phenomenon. Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

This is pretty self explanatory and should not need a lot of discussion.

How sad it is you come here and do not open yourself to charity or the truth.
 
GratefulDad said:
Did you read what this guy posted? You ignoring this is all we need to know about your position. So sad.

From the Vatican:

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…unions_en.html

CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION
TO UNIONS
BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

I. THE NATURE OF MARRIAGE
AND ITS INALIENABLE CHARACTERISTICS
  1. The Church’s teaching on marriage and on the complementarity of the sexes reiterates a truth that is evident to right reason and recognized as such by all the major cultures of the world. Marriage is not just any relationship between human beings. It was established by the Creator with its own nature, essential properties and purpose.(3) No ideology can erase from the human spirit the certainty that marriage exists solely between a man and a woman, who by mutual personal gift, proper and exclusive to themselves, tend toward the communion of their persons. In this way, they mutually perfect each other, in order to cooperate with God in the procreation and upbringing of new human lives.
  2. The natural truth about marriage was confirmed by the Revelation contained in the biblical accounts of creation, an expression also of the original human wisdom, in which the voice of nature itself is heard. There are three fundamental elements of the Creator’s plan for marriage, as narrated in the Book of Genesis.
In the first place, man, the image of God, was created “male and female” (Gen 1:27). Men and women are equal as persons and complementary as male and female. Sexuality is something that pertains to the physical-biological realm and has also been raised to a new level – the personal level – where nature and spirit are united.
.
.
.
II. POSITIONS ON THE PROBLEM
OF HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS
  1. Faced with the fact of homosexual unions, civil authorities adopt different positions. At times they simply tolerate the phenomenon; at other times they advocate legal recognition of such unions, under the pretext of avoiding, with regard to certain rights, discrimination against persons who live with someone of the same sex. In other cases, they favour giving homosexual unions legal equivalence to marriage properly so-called, along with the legal possibility of adopting children.
Where the government’s policy is de facto tolerance and there is no explicit legal recognition of homosexual unions, it is necessary to distinguish carefully the various aspects of the problem. Moral conscience requires that, in every occasion, Christians give witness to the whole moral truth, which is contradicted both by approval of homosexual acts and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons. Therefore, discreet and prudent actions can be effective; these might involve: unmasking the way in which such tolerance might be exploited or used in the service of ideology; stating clearly the immoral nature of these unions; reminding the government of the need to contain the phenomenon within certain limits so as to safeguard public morality and, above all, to avoid exposing young people to erroneous ideas about sexuality and marriage that would deprive them of their necessary defences and contribute to the spread of the phenomenon. Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

This is pretty self explanatory and should not need a lot of discussion.

How sad it is you come here and do not open yourself to charity or the truth.
Click to expand...
Please read post #163. Somehow you must have missed it while posting the same document over and over…
 
Fitswimmer said:
I didn’t declare myself for years. Never said a thing. Then I was driven out of a parish that I was part of for 20 years because of gossip. Not because I was in an active relationship, because I wasn’t. Not because I stood up in meetings and announced my sexuality. Because some Church members decided because I didn’t “dress like a girl” and was friends with another woman that we were in a lesbian relationship. Even though my priest was very supportive, I still had to leave rather than continue to expose this woman to problems and to stop the comments.

I’ve told that story before here, and it’s not the only time that well meaning Catholics have decided to tell me and other homosexuals what is good for us-while knowing NOTHING about our private lives.

As a consequence, I’ve begun to come out in the interest of trying to make Catholics see how much hurt and damage their well meaning corrections and admonishment can cause.

I am an activist for fair, just and humane treatment for homosexuals. I am an activist to stop harassment, meddling, gossip and hatred towards homosexuals by people who claim to be “judging the sin and not the sinner”.

I’m also an activist for the Constitution and the First Amendment.
Click to expand...
What you describe happens to a great many people not just homosexuals. Sadly, rumors abound in almost every setting where people gather.

I am an activist for fair and humane treatment of all people.
 
Fitswimmer said:
Please read post #163. Somehow you must have missed it while posting the same document over and over…
Click to expand...
Please do not be rude to those who only try and help. Their is plenty of hate and harshness in world and bringing this anger to CAF is not charitable.

Try, try to listen to the Church’s and God’s truth.
 
GratefulDad said:
Please do not be rude to those who only try and help. Their is plenty of hate and harshness in world and bringing this anger to CAF is not charitable.

Try, try to listen to the Church’s and God’s truth.
Click to expand...
Charitable?
I am a only relatively new to the CAF, and I see plenty of hate and harshness here.

And plenty of judgement too.

It seems that there is a lack of Christian standards on here from some posters.

And it is not helpful to continue to post and identical post over and over.
 
GratefulDad said:
Please do not be rude to those who only try and help. Their is plenty of hate and harshness in world and bringing this anger to CAF is not charitable.

Try, try to listen to the Church’s and God’s truth.
Click to expand...
What in the name of all that is holy are you talking about? 🤷 I have not called anyone a troll, I have not insulted anyone and more importantly I have not denied any teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
sydcatholic80 said:
Charitable?
I am a only relatively new to the CAF, and I see plenty of hate and harshness here.

And plenty of judgement too.

It seems that there is a lack of Christian standards on here from some posters.

And it is not helpful to continue to post and identical post over and over.
Click to expand...
True Christian charity demands fraternal correction.

Truth with Love

not

love without truth

or

truth without love
 
sydcatholic80 said:
Charitable?
I am a only relatively new to the CAF, and I see plenty of hate and harshness here.

And plenty of judgement too.

It seems that there is a lack of Christian standards on here from some posters.

And it is not helpful to continue to post and identical post over and over.
Click to expand...
Okay, everyone here who is motivated by hatred please raise your hands.

doesn’t raise his hand
 
Larowyn said:
Okay, everyone here who is motivated by hatred please raise your hands.

doesn’t raise his hand
Click to expand...
I had to raise my hand. I am motivated by hatred. Hatred of sin that is. I am also motivated by love, and I want to do what I can to help myself and others get to heaven. I can do this best by sharing the truth.
 
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