So is it or isn't it a human

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Jmcrae - but the paper quoted pertinent facts and referenced them. You are hopefully perfectly capable of looking up references?

Little Soldier - actually I can think of many subjects for which there would be little recent research, because there is no need to repeat previous research. I have been researching the use of polysomnography in parasomnias and most of the research is not that recent.
Doc, it just doesn’t logically follow that because there hasn’t been much recent research in one area that there won’t be much recent research in another area - especially in an area which is so controversial.

I believe the point of this paper you referenced is to somehow make prolifers become so shocked at the number of what they believe are human beings that die before implantation that they (the prolifers) will let up a little. That just won’t happen. The death of any human being at any stage of life is still the death of a human being. And we all die.

There is a huge moral difference between natural death and procured murder.

I think the paper’s point is lost on me.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.
 
Well as I explained to you I don’t have the time to look up all these papers to find the various methods used, but at least one of them used beta-human chorionic gonadotrophin assay.
 
Well as I explained to you I don’t have the time to look up all these papers to find the various methods used, but at least one of them used beta-human chorionic gonadotrophin assay.
Which is, what, in layman’s terms? 🙂
 
Well as I explained to you I don’t have the time to look up all these papers to find the various methods used, but at least one of them used beta-human chorionic gonadotrophin assay.
OK, you don’t have the time and I don’t have the ability (unfortunate for us both); but if the paper’s point is what I have stated in my last post, finding the methods is unnecessary.

Lots of human beings die before implantation. Maybe more human beings die before implantation than those that actually make it to implantation.

But of what importance is that? Why would that make any difference to us who believe human beings are formed at the moment of conception?

They die. You die. I die. We all die. The problem is that some unborn children are murdered through procured abortions.

What happens at implantation to somehow make what implants a human being at that point?

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.
 
One of the points the paper makes that cancer causes natural death yet we try and cure cancer.
As for implantation, since so many zygotes are lost before implantation, it makes little sense to me that there will be lots of people in heaven who never lived in the accepted sense on earth. And if all the sinless automatically go to heaven, they will outnumber those who “lived”. And being aborted will be a good thing since it will guarantee a place in heaven.
 
One of the points the paper makes that cancer causes natural death yet we try and cure cancer.
As for implantation, since so many zygotes are lost before implantation, it makes little sense to me that there will be lots of people in heaven who never lived in the accepted sense on earth. And if all the sinless automatically go to heaven, they will outnumber those who “lived”. And being aborted will be a good thing since it will guarantee a place in heaven.
We entrust those who die without Baptism to the mercy of God, but there is no guarantee that anyone not baptized goes to Heaven.

Murdering your child immediately after Baptism would guarantee him a place in Heaven - it would also probably guarantee you a place in Hell.
 
Sounds more like Stalin.
God has to be just, he cannot be anything but.
It may be that justice requires that only those who are baptized may go to Heaven. Speculation aside, God Himself has not revealed any other means of doing so. So, we entrust those who die without baptism to the mercy of God, without presuming that they are in Heaven.

Keep in mind, the natural and normal destination of the human soul is Hell; not Heaven, due to Original Sin.
 
One of the points the paper makes that cancer causes natural death yet we try and cure cancer.
As for implantation, since so many zygotes are lost before implantation, it makes little sense to me that there will be lots of people in heaven who never lived in the accepted sense on earth. And if all the sinless automatically go to heaven, they will outnumber those who “lived”. And being aborted will be a good thing since it will guarantee a place in heaven.
And children at younger and younger gestational ages are being saved, and surgery is being performed on unborn children.

What is your “accepted sense?” Are you actually telling me that my daughter Elysia didn’t live because she died before birth? Because if that is what you are saying, you are wrong. Elysia was conceived in great physical love and she was loved intensely for every second of her life on earth. All she did was good. She never sinned. She never killed anyone or stole anything or hurt anyone. She lived a good life. It was a short life on earth, but she is now in heaven and I will be with her again.

Are you telling me that my son Matthias didn’t live because he died before birth? Again, he was conceived in great physical love and was loved intensely his whole life. And he is in heaven.

These two children were never and are not now worthless.

What does the length of a human being’s life have to do with that human being’s humanity? Should we kill our infants so they can go to heaven quickly? What about toddlers or older children or teens? Why don’t we just snuff them all so they can go to heaven? What about the elderly? Are they doing anything good? Why don’t we just kill everyone and be done with it?

And what is wrong with lots of people who didn’t “live” using your definition, whatever that is, being in heaven? We were in the Garden of Eden before man screwed up. We would still be there if those there hadn’t gone against the word of God.

What happens when you drop a pebble into the middle of a circular, unmoving pool of water? Little waves move out from where you dropped the pebble and keep going until they meet the edge of the pool and then they move back toward the center.

What happens when a woman has a procured abortion? Her action is the pebble and it sends waves out and out and out because the edge of the pool is so far away. Her act of murder keeps engulfing more and more people, most of whom aren’t even aware of it. Her act of evil has a negative impact on this world we live in.

Now multiply that by a billion pebbles, all in the same pool. Now we have turbulence as all the waves of evil and murder meet and join until the water is roiling.

That is the evil of abortion. It tears down the mother, the father, siblings, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, grandparents, friends, people just walking by an abortion clinic and feeling a pang in their hearts. It rips tears in the fabric of society. It taints our world - a world which was given to us to foster, not kill. It was given to us by a loving God, just as a loving God gives us children. They don’t belong to us. We have no right to kill them.

All acts of evil taint our world, but abortion is particularly heinous. We spit in God’s face when we kill His human creation. We don’t care what God wants - we want to have sex because sex feels so good and who cares if a baby gets killed? We are so selfish with God’s gifts.

When we consider all the evil acts that people have performed over the millenia we have been present here it becomes so vast and so ugly that no human can comprehend it. God can because He is omniscient. We can’t understand God. We have to take certain things on faith. We are only human beings with paltry human brains and we don’t even use what brain power we have.

But God is just and loving and it will all make sense in the end.

And right now, to be honest with you, I wish I was not in this world because it pains me so much to be here and you will never know the extent. If I felt I could leave this world right now I would because I see evil and hate and murder being touted as solutions and goodness and rightness and what they really are is a black, yawning horror.

Ave Maria, Gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
Sancta Maria! Mater Dei, ora pro nobis
peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae.
Amen.
 
One of the points the paper makes that cancer causes natural death yet we try and cure cancer.
As for implantation, since so many zygotes are lost before implantation, it makes little sense to me that there will be lots of people in heaven who never lived in the accepted sense on earth. And if all the sinless automatically go to heaven, they will outnumber those who “lived”. And being aborted will be a good thing since it will guarantee a place in heaven.
What harm would it do, anyway, if the majority of those in Heaven were human beings who had never had the opportunity to be born, or to live past the age of five? 🤷
 
According to jmcrae those two souls’ natural destination is hell because of original sin. Not my view at all.
A zygote that didn’t implant has had a life as most people understand it? No.
 
What harm would it do, anyway, if the majority of those in Heaven were human beings who had never had the opportunity to be born, or to live past the age of five? 🤷
Who said anything about harm?
You don’t find anything remotely illogical about it? Probably not I guess:rolleyes:
 
According to jmcrae those two souls’ natural destination is hell because of original sin. Not my view at all.
A zygote that didn’t implant has had a life as most people understand it? No.
“A zygote that didn’t implant has had a life as most people understand it? No.”

When is Truth determined by what a majority “understands?”

And jmcrae is correct. It is only because of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus that the gates of heaven were opened. His sacrifice is the only reason any of us can go to heaven.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.
 
What harm would it do, anyway, if the majority of those in Heaven were human beings who had never had the opportunity to be born, or to live past the age of five? 🤷
I think Doc wants to hold onto his life here on earth forever. I can’t follow his reasoning, either. It’s just weird.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.
 
I think Doc wants to hold onto his life here on earth forever. I can’t follow his reasoning, either. It’s just weird.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.
Not me!😃
I can’t understand the obsession with extending life if you know you’re going to heaven?:confused:
 
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