So is it or isn't it a human

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Then clarify your statement. It can only be understood properly with a specific context.
Why in the world would I clarify something you said - not I :rolleyes:
But not when costs to the policy of limited government is too much. And that is what the Court decided. There are other means society can employ other than using its police power in order to try to protect the early fetus.
IMHO you’ve taken a dive off the shallow end of the pool here… repealing Roe v Wade equates to a “police power”???
Your refusal to accept the $ 100.00 minimum wage is a nice example—you are against poverty yet you would not go so far as a law requiring a $ 100.00 minimum.
I believe there are minimum wage laws already in place. Your argument isn’t with me - if you think they are unfair.

Again, a ‘just society’ provides equal protection of human life.
 
No my friend, a choice is the freedom to choose either one thing or another-whether good or bad for you. But that is fine for you to argue the pro-life legal position—it is a reasonable position to have.

But the Court saw it otherwise. The “realm of privacy” analysis is saying—that the govt cannot regulate there despite what moral wrong the women maybe doing. The Court split the duty to protect the life between the women, early on, then society takes over as the fetus matures. Thus, promoting both limited govt and protection of life via the state police power. Society can use other means to try to help the early fetus—just not its police power.
Laws have / are given weight. The right to life out weights the right of privacy Even kids know this - they know my right to privacy doesn’t out weigh your right to life ]. No other ruling has put the right of privacy as an equal to OR as a trump over the right of life or liberty - except Roe v Wade… And that right given to a select population.

Without the Declaration of Independence - there is no Constitution needed.
 
The Declaration of Independence speaks of the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, as unalienable rights. Noteworthy is that the right to life is mentioned first.
Jim your inventing up things. D of I has no place in Constitutional jurisprudence.

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Laws against killing other humans are not considered an overstepping of government authority, but a proper use of the law.
That is not the way the Court saw it in regards to the early fetus.

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=kimmielittle;6536790]Why in the world would I clarify something you said - not I :rolleyes:
Quit playing around–if you do not have an argument then say so. You stated:
" =kimmielittle;6530922]There are certain things one can expect from a ‘just society’. Moral and ethical obligations, if you will. Decent living conditions, wages, etc.
IMHO you’ve taken a dive off the shallow end of the pool here… repealing Roe v Wade equates to a “police power”???
Quit trying to use " sayings" to try to make it look like something smart is being said. You can have the position that Roe should be overturned—fine. But the Court said in Roe that the " realm of privacy" prevents the govt from regulating the decision on early abortions-----ie criminalizing it (the state’s police power).
I believe there are minimum wage laws already in place. Your argument isn’t with me - if you think they are unfair.
Yes, but they are not enough to lift a family out of poverty. A goal you indicated a Christian should support.
Again, a ‘just society’ provides equal protection of human life.
Yes it does, but that just states a broad goal. Another broad goal is a govt of limited powers. A context is needed to decide how to best balance these competing policies in a specfic context.

God Bless
 
=kimmielittle;6536814]Laws have / are given weight. The right to life out weights the right of privacy Even kids know this - they know my right to privacy doesn’t out weigh your right to life ].
Yes, and you can have that view. But the Court did not see it that way here----the Court made the distinction that the early fetus just does not get the same type of protection as a born person. And further, it is the women’s responsibility to protect the early fetus–not society’s police power.
No other ruling has put the right of privacy as an equal to OR as a trump over the right of life or liberty - except Roe v Wade… .
Maybe on life but no necessarily liberty issues—there are other cases but they are on other matters. But that makes no difference—this is the abortion context here.
Without the Declaration of Independence - there is no Constitution needed.
In a historical time line yes—but not as a matter of the contemporary function and application of the law by the Court. The D of I is not a legal authority.
 
You can have the position that Roe should be overturned—fine. But the Court said in Roe that the " realm of privacy" prevents the govt from regulating the decision on early abortions-----ie criminalizing it (the state’s police power).
What most people don’t realize is that although the holding of Roe (the right to an abortion) has been maintained, the reasoning behind it has completely changed. Roe based its decision on a right to privacy - famously found in the Constitution’s “penumbra” - while Casey discarded that reasoning and based it’s finding on due process and the equal protection guaranteed by the 14th Amendment, generating its own wacky sentiment, this time from Justice O’Connor: “At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe and the mystery of human life.” One has to think that this kind of “reasoning” puts abortion on no securer a footing than the one based on penumbras.

Ender
 
What most people don’t realize is that although the holding of Roe (the right to an abortion) has been maintained, the reasoning behind it has completely changed. Roe based its decision on a right to privacy - famously found in the Constitution’s “penumbra” - while Casey discarded that reasoning and based it’s finding on due process and the equal protection guaranteed by the 14th Amendment, generating its own wacky sentiment, this time from Justice O’Connor: “At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe and the mystery of human life.” One has to think that this kind of “reasoning” puts abortion on no securer a footing than the one based on penumbras.

Ender
“At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe and the mystery of human life.”

Indeed, that phrase has been widely ridiculed. It provides even less stable a basis for law than the “right of privacy” previously thought to allow the killing of the unborn.

At great many lawbreakers of many varieties would allege that their own concept of existence, meaning, the universe, and human life, is being violated by the enforcement of existing laws. The phrase is an invitation to legal chaos.

It would seem to me that the legal basis of Roe keeps changing because it is found to be increasingly irrational to justify. We might as well admit that it was just an exercise in “raw judicial power.”
 
“At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe and the mystery of human life.”

Indeed, that phrase has been widely ridiculed. It provides even less stable a basis for law than the “right of privacy” previously thought to allow the killing of the unborn.

At great many lawbreakers of many varieties would allege that their own concept of existence, meaning, the universe, and human life, is being violated by the enforcement of existing laws. The phrase is an invitation to legal chaos.

It would seem to me that the legal basis of Roe keeps changing because it is found to be increasingly irrational to justify. We might as well admit that it was just an exercise in “raw judicial power.”
Mega 👍

Not only that but pro-abortion people have to justify it while anti-abortion people don’t have to justify life.
 
Quit playing around–if you do not have an argument then say so. You stated:
" =kimmielittle;6530922]There are certain things one can expect from a ‘just society’. Moral and ethical obligations, if you will. Decent living conditions, wages, etc.
That is exactly what I said! What I didn’t say was: It’s Governments job to eliminate poverty.
Quit trying to use " sayings" to try to make it look like something smart is being said.
What I said was a personal opinion - last I checked, I can express my personal opinion, using any metaphor I think best describes those thoughts.
You can have the position that Roe should be overturned—fine. But the Court said in Roe that the " realm of privacy" prevents the govt from regulating the decision on early abortions-----ie criminalizing it (the state’s police power).
The sole reason for Government to exist is to protect / defend the weak - Murder is criminal.
Yes, but they are not enough to lift a family out of poverty. A goal you indicated a Christian should support.
It is not the Governments responsibility to lift a family out of poverty - that is an individuals responsibility. Government responsibility by a minimum wage ] is to protect the weak - against slavery… by providing a base wage.

A Christian obligation is far different than a Governments obligation. I don’t understand why many Grwnups can’t seem to grasp this.

My Christian obligation is to pay a wage above base minimum wages.
 
Yes, and you can have that view. But the Court did not see it that way here—
And the Court had no Constitutional base.
the Court made the distinction that the early fetus just does not get the same type of protection as a born person.
Actually, they gave privileged rights of a selected population over the right of another selected human life.
And further, it is the women’s responsibility to protect the early fetus
Absolutely, and she should be accountable.
–not society’s police power.
Governments responsibility is to protect the weak.
 
=kimmielittle;6538397]That is exactly what I said! What I didn’t say was: It’s Governments job to eliminate poverty.
Well give a number. What minimum wage do you think is a " decent" wage?
The sole reason for Government to exist is to protect / defend the weak - Murder is criminal.
Okay, but the govt can select different means to use to attempt this protection.
It is not the Governments responsibility to lift a family out of poverty - that is an individuals responsibility. Government responsibility by a minimum wage ] is to protect the weak - against slavery… by providing a base wage.
Well give a number? And whatever number you give why cannot it be a larger number? You are shifting to more general language to avoid the issue. (good technique by the way)
A Christian obligation is far different than a Governments obligation. I don’t understand why many Grwnups can’t seem to grasp this.
Right, so why is it the Govt obligation to make the moral decision that a women should properly make anyway.
My Christian obligation is to pay a wage above base minimum wages.
Great, and you did that without the Govt needing to do anything. Viola!
 
=kimmielittle;6538478]And the Court had no Constitutional base.
Well the Court did not think so. It had the authority on this—not you.
Actually, they gave privileged rights of a selected population over the right of another selected human life.
No that split the duty to protect the life between the women and society.
Absolutely, and she should be accountable.
And she will----by God. Govt need to take all that responsibility, or at least not a limited government.
Governments responsibility is to protect the weak.
In the ways that it chooses in order to protect and promote other competing policies.
 
Well give a number. What minimum wage do you think is a " decent" wage?
$200,000,000,000.00 gold backed 😃
Okay, but the govt can select different means to use to attempt this protection.
Not when it goes against the Constitution or it’s amended articles.
Well give a number? And whatever number you give why cannot it be a larger number? You are shifting to more general language to avoid the issue. (good technique by the way)
Thank you 🙂 I followed your lead.
Right, so why is it the Govt obligation to make the moral decision that a women should properly make anyway.
Now, this is a good question.👍

Probably, for the same reasons we have laws against child abuse??? Or stealing??? Do women commit these crimes?
 
Well the Court did not think so. It had the authority on this—not you.
Had the authority , yes.
Abused that authority, yes. There was not, or is now, any Constitutional base to provide a select population a right to kill another selected population. Nor is there a base to define human life.
 
kimmielittle;6538674]$200,000,000,000.00 gold backed 😃
Hello Comrade! 😃
Not when it goes against the Constitution or it’s amended articles.
That is great answer----come on my friend, the language of the Constitution is broad–that is why we have a Court to interpret it. Your trying to avoid answering.

Now, this is a good question.👍
Probably, for the same reasons we have laws against child abuse??? Or stealing??? Do women commit these crimes?
But those situations are not like the early fetus intrinsically connected to the body of the female. Are they?
 
=kimmielittle;6538708]Had the authority , yes.
Abused that authority, yes. There was not, or is now, any Constitutional base to provide a select population a right to kill another selected population. Nor is there a base to define human life.
Your characterization.
 
But those situations are not like the early fetus intrinsically connected to the body of the female. Are they?
No, they are not.

So by your reasoning an attached twin should be granted select rights over the other both being functioning equally ] to destroy life?

That life that is intrinsically attached - is unique. It is uniquely it’s own life.
 
=kimmielittle;6540327]Is it wrong?
If so please disprove this statement to me.
Quit trying to turn it around. One can simply make the reverse statement to you. Bottom line is that you, or I, are not the Supreme Court—it has the authority to say what the Constitution means. And it means, whatever the Surpeme Court says it means—that is what courts do. This is not a scientific experiment where something can be " proved" or " disproved" (in fact science itself simply works as an explanation of parts of reality)

Language is inherently indeterminate—thus the Court is needed to say what the Constitution means in a particular context or if it in applies in that context. Just like the Church is the authority teacher on what the Bible means.

Quit wasting time—be legal pro-life that is fine. But there is a reasonable counter argument that govt should not be excessively involved in this matter—which is to say completely unsurping the decision of the women from day one of conception.

The Church should spend more time helping women make their own correct moral decisions on their own than going on about the legal status of the early fetus.
 
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