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OraLabora
Guest
The Bible is not without violence. Ref: ps 136(137) breaking babies against rocks.
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Nine_Two
Guest
But as Christ said, the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind. The second is t love your neighbor as yourself.
The bible may contain violence, but it certainly does not command Christians to committ it.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”
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OraLabora
Guest
Indeed. So I took a verse out of context, and you juxtaposed this against other Biblical teachings.
We all, as Catholics, rightly get bent out of shape when taking Bible verses out of context, as my little experiment showed. What then to make of the Koranic verses here that others took out of the book’s context, and particularly a specific Muslim tradition of interpreting the Koran?
For instance in some traditions “jihad” means an inner combat with one’s own search for God which is indeed to the death. One’s own death to eternal life. Not all Muslim traditions are to be confused with whahhabism. A little intellectual rigor and honesty (not singling you out specifically) would make this debate far more illuminating.
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Nine_Two
Guest
The problem is that those verses from the Koran commanding violence aren’t being taken out of context. Look back at the traditional interpretations, within a Muslim society unconcerned with the perspectives of the west, and you find their true meaning. Modern apologists not withstanding.
I will grant that certain Muslim sects have a very good track record when it comes to violence (I think of Ismaili’s in particular here). But they are not mainstream.
meltzerboy
New member
I know nothing about JihadWatch. However, I’ve been around long enough to know about the antisemitic distortions of Judaism that have been expressed by various groups, including some posing as Jews, regarding what Judaism believes and stands for. I believe much of the same has occurred with respect to Catholicism, Fundamentalist and Evangelical Protestantism, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Seventh-Day Adventists, among other religions. This is because many people have a tendency to begin with preconceived notions and then find support for those ideas among individuals and organizations that are not really representative of the groups’ views. Why do many of us have this need? One reason psychologists give is the cognitive motivation to find our own personal, cultural, and religious identity. Identity is important for all of us: we don’t wish to be just a face in the crowd, exactly the same as everyone else. (Interestingly, we also don’t want to be too different from others and thus singled out or ostracized as strange, because of our need for affiliation.) This search and discovery of identity serves us well. At the same time, however, it can get us into trouble when we believe we need to find fault with or put others down for the purpose of boosting our own self-identity. Just a little psychology mini-lesson: take it or leave it!
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Xlainamo
Guest
Replying to the OP:
Muslims have their own point of view: they imagine to believe to the one, holy and true Islam, while Christians and Jews are distortions of it.
Cf. how Catholics believe we are THE true Church and Orthodox and Protestants are schismatics. Similarly, Orthodox consider themselves THE true Church and Catholics are schismatics for them. Protestants claim to be true Christians, while the Catholic church is a sect founded in the Council of Nicaea…
Also, the Muslims claim that the Gospel is distorted, but not the 20th century form. They claim that the Gospel as it is recorded in the first place, is distorted from the original teachings of Jesus
Muslims have their own point of view: they imagine to believe to the one, holy and true Islam, while Christians and Jews are distortions of it.
Cf. how Catholics believe we are THE true Church and Orthodox and Protestants are schismatics. Similarly, Orthodox consider themselves THE true Church and Catholics are schismatics for them. Protestants claim to be true Christians, while the Catholic church is a sect founded in the Council of Nicaea…
Also, the Muslims claim that the Gospel is distorted, but not the 20th century form. They claim that the Gospel as it is recorded in the first place, is distorted from the original teachings of Jesus
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jbeck43
Guest
Paul, I’m meeting with a couple of Mormons on mission, and have done this probably a dozen plus times. I meet with them always out of a spirit of friendliness and charity when I ask them questions concerning their faith beliefs. I know that this is somewhat off topic from the original post, but I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about what it was, or what question it was that lead you eventually out of the Mormon Church. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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jbeck43
Guest
Here I go posting again before waiting for a response. A line of questioning I usually follow is that the Bible was canonized in the fourth century by the Catholic Church by at least three different particular councils. If, as I believe, Mormons believe that all authority left the Earth after the death of John, then even if you believe that the words of the Bible itself had been altered you still accept the authority of the Catholic Church to at least tell you what the Bible is…which has gotten a couple of blank stares over the months. Again, I’m always very respectful and always with a smile on my face, but I’ve never actually talked to a convert about it. Curious.
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OraLabora
Guest
And of course Christians have never twisted the Bible and killed in the name of Christ
Just as a Christian can interpret the peaceful words of Jesus as a call to arms, so too can a Muslim interpret the harsher words of the Koran into peaceful acts, by instead turning the battle inwards against one’s own sinful tendencies, rather than outwards.
It really then, boils down to the the particular branch of Christianity… or Islam… that you belong to.
Moderate Muslims and moderate Christians do have one thing in common, they shouldn’t let the works of their harsher brothers stereotype them.
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Nine_Two
Guest
If you have to twist words to make them peaceful, you aren’t following the religion, are you?And of course Christians have never twisted the Bible and killed in the name of Christ
Just as a Christian can interpret the peaceful words of Jesus as a call to arms, so too can a Muslim interpret the harsher words of the Koran into peaceful acts, by instead turning the battle inwards against one’s own sinful tendencies, rather than outwards.
It really then, boils down to the the particular branch of Christianity… or Islam… that you belong to.
Moderate Muslims and moderate Christians do have one thing in common, they shouldn’t let the works of their harsher brothers stereotype them.
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Bezant
Guest
This is a good reasoning Meltzerboy and I would like to add to this the need to feel that our opinions are correct, even if there’s evidence to the contrary: choosing to follow certain media over others, preferring to hear opinions in line with ours. We all do it, and we’re allowed to have those preferences, as long as we don’t dismiss or omit the other side of the story.
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OraLabora
Guest
Unless they were intended to be interpreted that way. Not being an expert in Islam I cannot say. What I can say is that the several Muslims I know are peaceful, kind and (since I know them from work) highly professional.
To me, that’s what matters. That they appear to have the Natural Law written on their heart and don’t merit stereotyping.
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Bezant
Guest
What people actually do, I think, matters as much as what’s in the Bible or the Quran–and perhaps more.
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mtolympus
Guest
Christians and Muslims both claim to worship the God of Abraham. God made a covenant with Abraham, "And I will establish my covenant between me and thy seed after thee in their generations In other words God would later directly make his covenat with the seed of Abraham in their generation. In part of God’s promise to Abraham, God said: “I will be their God.” (Please read Genesis 17:3-8)
According to the Bible, the continuation of God’s covenant would continue through Abraham’s son Issac. This is where Christians and Muslims disagree. Muslims believe the covenant went through the linage of Ishmael. The Bible however says:“But my covenant will I establish with Issac.” (Please read Gen. 17:19-21)
The covenant then continued through Issac’s son Jacob who would later be called Israel. Jacob made a vow with God so: “Then shall the Lord be my God.” (please read Gen 28:20-22)
The covenant then went through Jacob’s son Judah until the time of Christ: “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah… until Shiloh come.” (Genesis 49:10) It was then transferred to Jacob’s son Joseph. In Jacob’s blessing on Joseph he said that the God of Jacob would be known as:“the shepherd, the stone of Israel,” a clear reference to Jesus Christ. (see Gen. 49:24)
The covenant of Abraham was established with Abraham’s seed at the time of Christ and also in our own generation through the covenant of baptism: "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ…And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (read Galatians 3:26-29)
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mtolympus
Guest
I am fine with the Bible just the way it is. I like to use the KJV or NIV.Funny, those are exactly the same arguments used by Mormons with regard to the bible vs. their “scriptures”.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Then you are at odds with your church.I am fine with the Bible just the way it is. I like to use the KJV or NIV.
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mtolympus
Guest
If you want to have some fun with the missionaries, (don’t tell them your source) but ask them what they think of what I posted in post 55. I would be very interested to hear how they resond.
I was a missionary many years ago. Keep smiling, it is appreciated!
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mtolympus
Guest
Why do you request “proof” that your friend is wrong? And, what proof did he give that apparently, was so convincing to you?
If Jesus told the Jews he was the Son of God he would have been put to death!!! Jesus once strongly hinted that he was the “I AM” that appeared to Moses. (Exodus 3:13-14) Here is what what happened:
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him.” (John 8:56-59)
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seeker57
Guest
Here Here! Well said Melterboy!
As a UU, I am often confronted by people whose preconceived notions of what we are leads them to believe certain erroneous facts.
To answer the initial question posited by the OP, no and yes.
The Bible is not wrong to Christians who believe its teachings are the authentic teachings of their God.
However, it is wrong to Muslims who believe the Quoran to be the authentic teachings of their God,
The above statements are true despite both religious traditions claiming to believe in the same monotheistic God.
As a Unitarian Universalist, I don’t believe either text is right or wrong. I believe each has something to teach us, but I don’t believe either to be divine proclamation.
So, the answer to the question is yes and no.
Peace,
Seeker
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