so ive noticed

[otjm]

Ordinary Form ? It’s not in the rubrics. The hand holding is a monkey see, monkey do novelty. We should have our hands folded in prayer.

Actually, there is nothing in the GIRM that regulates what one is to do with one’s hands. So, while there is nothing in the rubrics concerning holding hands; niether is there anything in the rubrics about any other hand positions.

I went to a parish yesterday I had not been to for quite some time. They didn’t kneel after the Agnus Dei. I started to, and noticed no one there did. I was in the back. I went ahead and knelt.

It is within the lawful authority of the bishop to determine whether people remain standing after the Agnus Dei, or if they kneel. It would appear that you may have been in a parish which followed the lawful alternative.

 

[otjm]

.My wife and I do not hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer and neither do my grown children. If someone tries to grap on to my hand I ignore them. Sorry but the Lord’s Prayer is not a prayer of unity. It is a personal prayer. The person next to me might be my friend but he is not my Savior.
The Priest alone is to lift up his hands to the Lord.We are to lift up our hearts.

Well, maybe you say a different Our Father than the Church does. As in “Our”, not “My” Father. By everything I learned in English, Latin and Homeric and koinae Greek, “Our” is a prayer of unity.

Nice try, though.

 

[otjm]

Not knowing the people personally, I do not know the answer to your question. But if they were traditional Catholics, like myself, I may be able to hazard a guess.

The holding of hands is a new development.

Actually, no, that is incorrect. It has been around since at least 1964. It appears to have its origin with the Charismatic Movement (the one that was commented favorably upon by John Paul 2 on more than one occasion).

It has occasioned impassioned commentary over the years; some directed at the bishops, and undoubtedly some directed at Rome. Since it started occurring, Rome has issued not one but two revisions of the General Instructions of the Roman Missal, as well as other documents directed at liturgical actions and postures, particularly to correct what Rome considered improper (e.g. Redemptionis Sacramentum).

For all that Rome has put out concerning the Liturgy, the silence on the issue of holding hands has been deafening. That is to say, Rome has been aware of the issue for decades now, and has seen fit to not comment on the matter. That in itself, given the passage of time and the number of documents issued, should be indicative that it is not a matter that Rome has seen fit to change, institute, revoke, prohibit, modify, allow, or disallow.

Perhaps the comment from Archbishop Chaput (not a bishop one would call liberal) should put people at ease. The essence of his comment was that there was no posture of the hands called for during the Our Father, so it is incorrect to assume, because the rubrics do not call for it, that it is prohibited. Silence on an issue in not prohibition (and before anyone goes goofy and comments about standing on one’s head, holding hands does have some liturgical aspect, as a sign of unity; the former does not).

Further, he said that unless and until Rome speaks, people are free to either hold hands, or not hold hands; those that do should exercise charity towards those who don’t; and those who don’t should exercise charity towards those that do. Meaning, no one should be forced to hold hands, and those who do hold hands are not to be criticized.

Note: the bishop is the liturgical head of his diocese, meaning he has more liturgical authority and know-how than do posters in a forum. And granted that someone can say that he has no authority over another diocese, that does not change the facts of the issue - there is no posture at all required or regulated as to one’s hands during the Our Father.

And as to those who say that it is a novelty, that may be correct to a certain extent; but the same can be said of all the changes that have occurred in the Mass over the last 20 centuries; so the depth of the validity of the claim is perhaps doubtful.

 

[otjm]

Holding hands is made up by people, it is not part of the Mass. Same with “hand movements” - this is not part of the Mass for the lay people to “act out” what the priest is doing. It is not required, and many feel, should be stopped, as it is not appropriate for the people to make things up and add them to the Mass.

They were doing nothing wrong.

~Liza

It is as much a part of the Mass as having one’s hands palms together, fingers pointing up. The priest also holds his hands in that fashion, so the comment could be made that people doing so are mimicing a posture of the priest.

Further, Rome has seen fit to ignore the issue. Perhaps Cardinal Arinze’ comment about another posture (standing, sitting or kneeling after receiving Communion, and before all else have) applies here, when he said it was not Rome’s intent to so rigidly regulate posture. Since he see’s fit to allow different postures (particularly in the case where it appeared that one was specified - standing), the issue of holding hands is not an issue for the Church, but rather for the parishoner.

 

[At_Trent]

Let’s be honest. Catholics are the most antisocial of all Christians. Don’t believe it, then ask a convert from a protestant denomination.

We hold hands to “warm each other” up for that germaphobe handshake that’s coming 30 seconds after the Our Father.

 

[otjm]

why should anyone hold hands for the Our Father, it is not a prescribed part of the Mass, and what “hand movements” are you talking about? Please find a place in the missal where the instructions in red tell the faithful to make hand motions.

I, too, could do without the hand motions. As to the issue of holding hands during the Our Father, it has been around since at least 1964, known by Rome, ignored in not one but now two revisions of the GIRM, RS, and other documents speaking to rubrics since then. There simply is no prescribed directions as to hands.

 

[FirstCalled]

I started attending the Tridentine mass this past year. Now, when I go to a regular mass. I do not hold hands during the Our Father, or recite it, aside from “deliver us from evil.” I also kneel after the agnus dei, even though my bishop doesn’t want us to anymore. I also try not to shake hands, I usually give a slight head bow to acknowledge the nearest, but I feel it now terribly out of place as our Lord just turned the bread into the Eucharist and the priest hasn’t even received yet.
They could simply be traditional Catholics there. I am following the rubrics now, there were things added to the liturgy that aren’t necessarily bad but why try to improve it without council approval?

 

[Seamus_L]

I almost never attend the OF, but the times I have I’ve really disliked hand holding and handshaking. Hand holding is just a warm and fuzzy evangelical Protestant innovation designed to make people feel like they’re experiencing something deep and unifying. I’ve seen parishes where it was done very aggressively like it was mandatory.

 

[otjm]

I started attending the Tridentine mass this past year. Now, when I go to a regular mass. I do not hold hands during the Our Father, or recite it, aside from “deliver us from evil.” I also kneel after the agnus dei, even though my bishop doesn’t want us to anymore. I also try not to shake hands, I usually give a slight head bow to acknowledge the nearest, but I feel it now terribly out of place as our Lord just turned the bread into the Eucharist and the priest hasn’t even received yet.
They could simply be traditional Catholics there. I am following the rubrics now, there were things added to the liturgy that aren’t necessarily bad but why try to improve it without council approval?

There are some things the Council does not need to approve; if the bishop under the authority granted him by Rome makes a liturgical direction, then obedience is the proper response.

Considering that the Our Father is to be recited by the congregation, it would be surprising that anyone would refuse to say it. Holding hands is certainly not required, and no one should indicate that one who does not hold hands is acting improperly (and vice versa). although a shake of the hands is the general means of conveying the Lord’s Peace, it is not particularly dicatated; a bow of the head certainly could be substituted (or, as in the Maronite rite, a clasping of hands but no “shake”), and there are other gestures.

 

[FaustinaClare]

I’m a former protestant and I don’t like holding hands during the Our Father and the sign of peace just makes me uncomfortable. (I’m very shy)

My husband who is cradle Catholic actually reprimands me in Mass if I don’t grab his hand during the Our Father. I don’t like it at all. It reminds me too much of the lovey dovey protestant services where people will cry and hold up their hands to Jesus and then go out drinking and sleeping around the next day. Sorry I just feel uncomfortable sometimes with gestures like that. That’s just me though

 

[lizaanne]

I, too, could do without the hand motions. As to the issue of holding hands during the Our Father, it has been around since at least 1964, known by Rome, ignored in not one but now two revisions of the GIRM, RS, and other documents speaking to rubrics since then. There simply is no prescribed directions as to hands.

Well then, by that reasoning, we can all do cartwheels down the aisle, and high five the priest as he parades during the Sign of Peace!

The GIRM does not cover every single last possible body position. That does not mean that just because it’s not in there that it is allowed, that presumption is simply absurd.

~Liza

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t know about the coloration, but the signs of the cross one makes during the preface to the Gospel and the striking of the breast during the Confiteor (when Penitential Rite A is used) actually are “hand movements” that the congregation ought to be making.

the rubrics are the red part of the missal, the instructions on what to do
the black is what is said
where in the rubrics are we the faithful instructed to make any mandatory hand gestures?

 

[MarkThompson]

the rubrics are the red part of the missal, the instructions on what to do
the black is what is said
where in the rubrics are we the faithful instructed to make any mandatory hand gestures?

I know what rubrics are; I meant that, without checking, I didn’t know whether the directions were in the GIRM, where they would be printed in black, or in the text of the Ordo itself, where they would be printed in red. Having now checked (though only in online sources, so I’ll provide a little color for emphasis on my own), I can tell you that the direction on the Confiteor in the Missale says:
Fit brevis pausa silentii. Postea omnes simul formulam confessionis generalis perficiunt:

Confíteor Deo omnipoténti et vobis, fratres, quia peccávi nimis cogitatióne, verbo, ópere et omissióne: et, percutientes sibi pectus, dicunt: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa. Deinde prosequuntur: Ideo precor beátam Maríam semper Vírginem, omnes Angelos et Sanctos, et vos, fratres, oráre pro me ad Dóminum Deum nostrum.
As to the signs of the cross at the Gospel acclamation, the Missale says of the deacon or priest alone, “Diaconus, vel sacerdos: Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum N., et interim signat librum et seipsum in fronte, ore et pectore,” while the GIRM expands on this:
Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well.
So there you have it. Hand movements and gestures for the congregation.

 

[otjm]

Well then, by that reasoning, we can all do cartwheels down the aisle, and high five the priest as he parades during the Sign of Peace!

There is a phrase: anything carried to its logical extreme is illogical. You just demonstrated it.

As I said in the post, positions that have no liturgical meaning are just that - they have no liturgical meaning. Holding hands is a sign of unity. It is not the only sign; it is not necessarily a sign of unity, but any person can figure that one out as it crosses cultural boundaries. Cartwheels have no liturgical meaning. A 'High Five" is not an exchange of Peace but rather is s sign more attuned to a victory. And even you could articulate this, which is why, I presume, you chose it.

The GIRM does not cover every single last possible body position. That does not mean that just because it’s not in there that it is allowed, that presumption is simply absurd.

~Liza

Your knowledge if liturgy is showing - and it is lacking. Maybe you consider Archbishop Chaput and Cardinal Arinze illiterate in such matters, or an absurd position.

I don’t.

And as a matter of fact, if you actually read the GIRM, you would find that it covers most body positions; they are fairly simple: standing, sitting, kneeling, and in procession. What it doesn’t cover is what to do with your hands during the Our Father, or for that matter, during most of the Mass (there are several points noted in a post above).

You also don’t have a clue as to what I think about the matter, since I have not said. I am not promoting holding hands during the Our Father (nor the orans posture, for that matter). Burt there are patent falsehoods in this thread as to liturgy. Rome simply has not said that one may not hold hands during the Our Father, and they have had 46 years or more to do so, with ample documents which could have addressed the issue.

If you don’t like it, that is perfectly and absolutely acceptable to me. I don’t have a dog in the fight. You are most welcome to not hold hands (as noted clearly by Chaput), and no one at all at any time ever should criticize you on the matter. I certainly would not.

And what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; while you may not like it (or hate it, for that matter), it is not your place to criticize those who do. It is akin to criticizing those who prefer the OF over the EF, or vice versa; People are free to choose and it is not your business to criticize them over it.

 

[otjm]

I know what rubrics are; I meant that, without checking, I didn’t know whether the directions were in the GIRM, where they would be printed in black, or in the text of the Ordo itself, where they would be printed in red. Having now checked (though only in online sources, so I’ll provide a little color for emphasis on my own), I can tell you that the direction on the Confiteor in the Missale says:
Fit brevis pausa silentii. Postea omnes simul formulam confessionis generalis perficiunt:

Confíteor Deo omnipoténti et vobis, fratres, quia peccávi nimis cogitatióne, verbo, ópere et omissióne: et, percutientes sibi pectus, dicunt: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa. Deinde prosequuntur: Ideo precor beátam Maríam semper Vírginem, omnes Angelos et Sanctos, et vos, fratres, oráre pro me ad Dóminum Deum nostrum.
As to the signs of the cross at the Gospel acclamation, the Missale says of the deacon or priest alone, “Diaconus, vel sacerdos: Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum N., et interim signat librum et seipsum in fronte, ore et pectore,” while the GIRM expands on this:
Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well.
So there you have it. Hand movements and gestures for the congregation.

Thank you; that pretty much sums it up.

For those who have not taken Latin, you might want to translate.

 

[MarkThompson]

Thank you; that pretty much sums it up.

For those who have not taken Latin, you might want to translate.

Oh, I guess you’re right. Unfortunately, as far as I know, the Missale is not available online in English, only Latin, so these literal translations are mine:

*Fit brevis pausa silentii. Postea omnes simul formulam confessionis generalis perficiunt:

Confíteor Deo omnipoténti et vobis, fratres, quia peccávi nimis cogitatióne, verbo, ópere et omissióne: et, percutientes sibi pectus, dicunt: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa. Deinde prosequuntur: Ideo precor beátam Maríam semper Vírginem, omnes Angelos et Sanctos, et vos, fratres, oráre pro me ad Dóminum Deum nostrum.*

A brief pause of silence is made. Afterwards all carry out the formula of general confession together:

I confess to God almighty and to you, brothers, for I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, deed, and omission: and, striking themselves on the chest, they say: through my fault, through my fault, through my greatest fault. Then they proceed: Therefore I beg blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, brothers, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Diaconus, vel sacerdos: Léctio sancti Evangélii secúndum N., et interim signat librum et seipsum in fronte, ore et pectore,
The deacon, or priest: A reading of the holy Gospel according to N., and meanwhile he signs the book and himself on the forehead, mouth and chest.

 

[kevinwinterborn]

I read up on this subject some years ago. I grew up in what I consider a ‘traditional’ Catholic church in a small town in the coal region of Pennsylvania. Never saw anyone hold hands during the pater noster. We always kneeled at the appropriate times as called for the in GIRM. My wife and I got married and had to live in NJ for a time. We looked for a church and attended Mass at the closest church. Well, they didn’t kneel and they all held hands during pater noster, or held their hands out as the priest does during mass. I researched this and found that all of this is an attempt of some, especially in places like NJ to show that the laity is on par with the priest, that they are ‘above’ kneeling and have
‘the right’ to pray directly and worship the Lord by raising their hands during mass. But, the mass and all the prayers are going through the shepherd, the leader, the priest and rising up to the Lord from him. I was told the mass is led by the priest and all prayers and all affection for the Lord should flow through him, he offers up our prayers for us in Mass. I’m not a priest, no big theologian or anything, but this is what I remember and it makes sense to me. When I saw that they didn’t kneel in this church, and found out the reason why, I didn’t joing this parish and found one equidistant (or pretty close) that had a vibrant KoC contingent. Found out later that the ‘diocese’ frowned on this church (the one that doesn’t kneel) and others in the diocese that do the same.

]

Ordinary Form ? It’s not in the rubrics. The hand holding is a monkey see, monkey do novelty. We should have our hands folded in prayer. If it was just a single time, perhaps they were at odds with each other, who knows ?

A lot of things that should be done never are, like bowing during the Creed at the uttering of the words
“by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.”

I went to a parish yesterday I had not been to for quite some time. They didn’t kneel after the Agnus Dei. I started to, and noticed no one there did. I was in the back. I went ahead and knelt. *The priest didn’t follow the rubrics for the Consecration or Elevation either.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm

Edit : *to clarify, I’m not doubting Transubstantiation occurred.