So I've reached an impasse

[Bubba_Switzler]

As the title suggests, I’ve been struggling with the nature of faith, morality, and spirituality since I left grad school a few years ago.

A little exposition first. I was raised Catholic, and I received an excellent education through Catholic schools. I attended a Jesuit college, which contributed a great deal to my interest in philosophy and spirituality. I’ve spent many a summer day whiling away the hours reading Kant, Aquinas, Moore, and Loyola (while sneaking a few chapters of Tolkien, Lewis, and Asimov here and there). I’m a history buff, and I’ve always been fascinated with Church history. I feel very comfortable with Catholic theology, and while I find it difficult to agree with some of the Church’s stances on social issues, I feel that ultimately the Church has been a great force for morality, compassion, charity, and mercy in the world.

Here is where the impasse comes in: I do not believe in the supernatural. I tend to lump deities in ghosts, alien abductions, unicorns, etc… and it depresses me tremendously. I would love to live in a world where God existed and loved me, where I had value beyond my material acquisitions. Oh, I’ve seen the constant theist-atheist logical back and forth (its an internet cliche at this point), and I’m a veteran of these types of debates. My mind tells me that the theist’s position is too much of a stretch, too tenuous an argument to support so grand a proposition as the existence of a deity. And yet, I find that life as a non-believer is so hollow.

But I want to believe. The world is such a cold and lonely place, and the thought that I might spend the rest of my days without purpose beyond the petty materialism of worldly wisdom fills me with dread. I am an atheist, and it breaks my heart.

Apologies for being, um, dramatic, I guess. But I’m so lost and directionless right now. If anyone could offer some advice, or point me in the right direction to find it, I would be grateful.

I sympathize with you because I also find much of orthodox theology to be of questionable reliability.

However, I drew the conclusion that it is the atheist’s position that is too much of a stretch.

Most atheists will lump Christianity in with other mythology and paranormal claims. But if you spend time really studying the evidence for Christianity you will find that for it to be false and atheism to be true, too much that has been handed down to us has to be bunk. It stretches credulity to the breaking point.

But there is an even more fundamental question at hand: are there phenomena beyond our perception and control? You want to have faith but I suspect you also want to know and to control. Acknowledging the unknownable and uncontrolable is unsettling. It’s one thing say “I don’t know”, another thing to say “I can’t know” or even “we will never know”. Mystery is unsettling.

What is often behind the atheistic mindset is a form of hubris: that which is beyond our reach cannot exist as well as a belief that all who preceeded us were gullible fools.

My advice is to think about how much you really don’t know, how much you reall cannot control. Get comfortable with your own ignorance and limitations and the ignorance and limitations of mankind as a species. And then entertain the possibilty that there are some things that will be forever outside your perception and understanding about which you can only know if they reveal themselves to you.

 

[Horton]

Wow! A number of really good, heartfelt responses.

Perhaps the thing that I am having the most difficulty in grasping is the concept of prayer. I mean, intellectually I know what the word means, but its not something I’ve ever done or experienced. Prayer in school was just the time to close your eyes and think about what was for lunch, not something I ever attempted with any real sincerity. Several folks mentioned that prayer is where you ‘meet’ or are ‘called by’ God. This is where the rubber hits the road for me, because I literally have no idea what meeting or being called by God would be like. I have never experienced the sacred like that, and I would dearly like to.

As a convert to the Catholic Church I too had difficulty grasping prayer - Not the need for it or it’s power - but how to pray. With a little practice I’ve found what works for me. In addition to the witten prayers and devotions I have conversations with God, I just talk to Him, and I listen. Meeting or being called by God is different for everyone. I don’t hear a voice speak to me but I get thoughts or feelings that are just…right. Nothing magical really but of a certainty of what is God’s will for me.

Many times I don’t get an answer until much later. I’ve learned to have faith that God is on his time, not mine and I’m ok with that.

 

[Goya]

ggoods:

Not to detract from any of the other comments, but allow me to share my $.02.

1st, imo, as an atheist, you’re missing the forrest for the trees. You are disputing God’s very existence–and looking for proof of His existence–with the very proof you are seeking.

You can think; you are cognizant of your own existence; you are employing your mental faculties…and wondering where’s the proof of God.

I say, beging with the fact that you have functional mental faculties. For you to believe that God does not exist-- the mere fact that you are–that you exist–let alone, endowed with superior mental facuties–you must necessarily conclude that you are here as a result of literally Trillions of very convenient accidents.

This cell united with some other cell, and just accidentally developed into…you.

Take it back further still–a ‘perfect storm’ forms on a random rock amidst the grandiosity of the universe…and on this random rock, random matter just randomly, conveniently, accidentally, gathers to form the building blocks of life…with no purpose or direction…and randomly, conveniently, accidentally, organizies itself into more complex forms of life…and continues this ever more complex cycle, conveniently, accidentally, on and on…until YOU come into existence.

That’s one hell of a story.

Personally, I find the Judeo-Christian narrative much more plausible, than such a fancy tale of purposeless, directionless, convenient accidents, that continue to perpetuate themselves, to this very day–for no discernable reason whatsoever. From a strictly logical, objective perspective even. Hell, just about any fishtale concocted by any religion, makes more sense than that.

Yet that is exactly what atheism believes.

If you placed all the parts of an automoblie in a room–do you think that just by the passage of time–millions of years even–those parts would some how manage to figure out how to assemble themselves into an automobile? Or any thing operational at all?

Inate objects…just randomly gathering–to form something operational–let alone life–that’s how we got here?

(and yes, I’ve seen those studies where the base ‘ingredients’ of life were placed in a container, and have attracted one another…but someone/thing designed those basic ingredients to act as they do…).

 

[Moorfeus]

you have a right to think for yourself. This a faith…a belief…not a fact. This is not something that can be proven, its what people believe. God gave you a mind to use to think for yourself. If it is true…it can be proven to be so. Therefore it should not require faith. Find the truth to satisfy your heart.

 

[Goya]

On a completely seperate note/perspective…

I was just listening to a Matthew Kelley CD. In it, he mentioned how we send our kids off to college, and figure that by the time they’re 22, they’re ready for life. But all we’ve ever taught them, is to focus on themselves–do everthing for themselves, by themselves, to improve themselves…and then we wonder why they come out so empty, and disheartened.

[My translation/application]:

College is where we learn to be independent.

Life requires us to be inter-dependent. Love requires it. And interdependence, is wherein we find fulfillment–and how we get the whole notion of God, love, our purpose, etc.–and it provides the framework for making sense of Christ’s wisdom, as we read it in the Gospels.

(Kelley goes on to talk about the value of service of others).

For me, marrying my wife…and then having children–is how life, purpose, and religion, all started to come into focus–because when you have kids, you become the ultimate servant. You’re existence becomes all about serving others–the little ones. Perhaps our spouses as well, but for the most part, our spouses are there, side by side with us, serving as well.

Point being–you won’t get God, by looking inward, or even outward, seeking proof of God–or asking “what has God done for me?”, or “what can God do for me?”–you get God, by asking “what can I do for YOU, dear Lord”, (to paraphrase JFK), and giving of yourself. Wholly.

…just MHO…

 

[snarflemike]

Wow! A number of really good, heartfelt responses.

Most of the suggestions offered are things I can do, including the really excellent suggestion that maybe I will find what I’m looking for in others, rather than in books. That is really something that struck me, and something I hadn’t considered before. Not that the book suggestions aren’t immensely appreciated, I guess I have some more reading to do as well.

Perhaps the thing that I am having the most difficulty in grasping is the concept of prayer. I mean, intellectually I know what the word means, but its not something I’ve ever done or experienced. Prayer in school was just the time to close your eyes and think about what was for lunch, not something I ever attempted with any real sincerity. Several folks mentioned that prayer is where you ‘meet’ or are ‘called by’ God. This is where the rubber hits the road for me, because I literally have no idea what meeting or being called by God would be like. I have never experienced the sacred like that, and I would dearly like to.

I’d also like to clear up any misconceptions folks may have about my skepticism. I’m not a skeptic because I’m malicious, or because I have some nefarious political agenda. It isn’t as if I’ve experienced something holy and rejected it because it didn’t fit with my desires, and I have no desire to confuse or hurt anyone who believes. I’m, in fact, deeply envious of believers, I’ve just always felt that the proposition that God exists didn’t have enough evidence to support it. But I’ve just lately found that kind of thinking to be too narrow, and I’ve just got this feeling…its hard to put into words. I just have this feeling that there is a real mystery here, that there is something more out there. I feel like the Catholicism I was raised with is special, and I have some deep affinity for it I can’t explain.

I’m intellectually exhausted by these things, and I’m thinking that more thinking is me just spinning my wheels. One of you kind posters said I’m on a journey, I guess its time to start walking and stop thinking about walking. All of your advice, well wishes, and prayers I accept with gratitude.

I appreciate your honesty and your humility. I was somewhat where you are once, but not as open to questioning or to the implications of my atheism. It was beauty that got me over the hump, not intellectual arguments. The beauty of my wife’s sacred choir (chant and sacred polyphony), and the audacious, profligate beauty of the local butterfly house. God is the only artist who never had or has artists’ block.

Oh, I went the intellectual route after that, and everything fell into place, and I found a truly coherent worldview that I never had before, but it is still the unexpected beauty in the world, and my unexpected reaction to it, that I believe most connects me to God.

I will recommend three things for you. One is a book, but not a book of arguments. It is CS Lewis’ “Surprised by Joy,” his spiritual autobiography from childish faith to firm and scornful atheism back to faith. It’s a wonderful book, and I too have experienced the Joy of which he speaks (you’ll have to read it to know what he means by Joy).

Another is the conversion story (and general blogging) of the author John C Wright. He was a very convicted atheist (“I was a better atheist than you are now” he will often tell atheists in his comment section). He had an astounding conversion experience, a true 2x4 to the head, a profligate (to return to that theme) amount of evidence given to him.
scifiwright.com/2011/09/a-question-i-never-tire-of-answering/

Finally I will just offer a personal observation. When I was not looking for God (or open to his presence), I never found him. Now, when I am looking for God (or just open to his presence), I find him everywhere. He sends me little reminders of his presence at opportune times, and I just know that is what they are, like when your spouse leaves little surprises about for you to find. Be humble and open, and you will be rewarded in abundance. The Hound of Heaven will never stop pursuing you.

 

[snarflemike]

you have a right to think for yourself. This a faith…a belief…not a fact. This is not something that can be proven, its what people believe. God gave you a mind to use to think for yourself. If it is true…it can be proven to be so. Therefore it should not require faith. Find the truth to satisfy your heart.

Without intending to derail this thread, the existence of God can be philosophically proven a great many different ways. The arguments are on the side of God’s existence, not on the side of his non-existence. It is atheism, not theism, which is “irrational” to quote philosopher Edward Feser. Unfortunately not even most believers understand this.

 

[CB_Catholic]

ggoods:

Not to detract from any of the other comments, but allow me to share my $.02.

1st, imo, as an atheist, you’re missing the forrest for the trees. You are disputing God’s very existence–and looking for proof of His existence–with the very proof you are seeking.

You can think; you are cognizant of your own existence; you are employing your mental faculties…and wondering where’s the proof of God.

I say, beging with the fact that you have functional mental faculties. For you to believe that God does not exist-- the mere fact that you are–that you exist–let alone, endowed with superior mental facuties–you must necessarily conclude that you are here as a result of literally Trillions of very convenient accidents.

This cell united with some other cell, and just accidentally developed into…you.

Take it back further still–a ‘perfect storm’ forms on a random rock amidst the grandiosity of the universe…and on this random rock, random matter just randomly, conveniently, accidentally, gathers to form the building blocks of life…with no purpose or direction…and randomly, conveniently, accidentally, organizies itself into more complex forms of life…and continues this ever more complex cycle, conveniently, accidentally, on and on…until YOU come into existence.

That’s one hell of a story.

Personally, I find the Judeo-Christian narrative much more plausible, than such a fancy tale of purposeless, directionless, convenient accidents, that continue to perpetuate themselves, to this very day–for no discernable reason whatsoever. From a strictly logical, objective perspective even. Hell, just about any fishtale concocted by any religion, makes more sense than that.

Yet that is exactly what atheism believes.

If you placed all the parts of an automoblie in a room–do you think that just by the passage of time–millions of years even–those parts would some how manage to figure out how to assemble themselves into an automobile? Or any thing operational at all?

Inate objects…just randomly gathering–to form something operational–let alone life–that’s how we got here?

(and yes, I’ve seen those studies where the base ‘ingredients’ of life were placed in a container, and have attracted one another…but someone/thing designed those basic ingredients to act as they do…).

I have an 11 year old granddaughter who admits she sometimes has a hard time believing in God. “But then, Grandma,” she says, "I look at everything around me, and I think ’ “It’s impossible for all of this to have happened all by itself.” ’

I think you two are of the same mind.