So, Kolob and Jewish Native Americans

[claymcdermott]

So, Mormons only. If you are not Mormon, only comment with direct and sourced quotes from Mormon sources. No exceptions. I hate how the internet has a million all wanting to contribute with nothing to say, and they want to do it nasty.

So, Mormons, you gotta alotta stuff I do not find that odd that others do find odd. But you got Kolob, and Jewish Indians, and Adam and Eve in Jackson County, MO, and you got a God who seems in no way to explain where the Universe comes from, mortal and all as he is. And you got that Lucy Harris thing to deal with.

So, do you guys take a lot of the Book of Mormon figuratively? I mean, alotta you guys are really smart, but this just seems so demonstrably false to me.

And that Lucy Harris thing just sounds so damning.

There must be more to this, because, I mean, Brandon Flowers doesn’t seem dumb, and I like Glenn Beck usually, and Philo T. Farnsworth invented the dang TV, which is crazy smart, TV inventing and all.

I just wanna hear how Mormons themselves deal with all these problems.

 

[Hatikvah]

and you got a God who seems in no way to explain where the Universe comes from, mortal and all as he is.

This source on www.lds.org states about creation:

“Under the direction of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth (see Mosiah 3:8; Moses 2:1). From scripture revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith, we know that in the work of the Creation, the Lord organized elements that had already existed (see Abraham 3:24). He did not create the world “out of nothing,” as some people believe.”

This allows for a multiverse in Mormonism, assuming that every God has their own universe. And you said that non-Mormons could use cited material.

 

[jane_doe]

I’m sorry, but your post here reeks of ignorance and disrespect.

If you want people to take the time to explain their dearly beloved faith to you, it is best not to start off with disrespect and ignorance. I recommend studying God’s way of love and charity (1 Corin 13).

 

[claymcdermott]

I legit did not think that I sounded disrespectful there.

I am just saying, you guys seem smart, we citizens of counties where we do not have many of you, we really do not get you guys, what are you guys about?

I am fairly happy with Kerouac’s description of Catholicism as a ”weird religion.” I do not think that he was disrespectful when he said it.

And thank you Ha Tikva, you gave me a source I did not know about which will probably yield answers to a lot of these questions.

 

[claymcdermott]

And janedoe, of course it reeks of ignorance. I could not have been more upfront about knowing I knew little about Mormonism

 

[claymcdermott]

Actually, how can anyone start off other than with ignorance?

 

[jane_doe]

And janedoe, of course it reeks of ignorance. I could not have been more upfront about knowing I knew little about Mormonism

Ok. From your OP, it looks like you’ve been toilet-diving thus far, reading troll infested sites that thrive on making a belief look ridiculous. I’m sure you’ve seen similar toilet troll websites on Catholicism, which will happily tell you that Catholics are cannibal Mary-worshippers and all priests are corrupt child molesters (hence why I call these types of sites “toilets”).

If you want to learn what Mormons ACTUALLY believe, I recommend checking out Mormon.org and getting your information from the source. Hint: it starts and ends with Jesus Christ.

 

[claymcdermott]

Look, I mention three Mormons I really admire upfront.

I learned about Kolob after watching the old Battlestar Gallactica and googling it. I learned about Lucy Harris from reading something about women in 19th century that was not very nice to any religion. I learned about Jewish Indians from a Mormon pamphlet I skimmed while on vacation in UT, and found it odd, so, I did not think much more of it. Adam and Eve I googled after a friend told me, and I found toilet sites.

I am still not real satisfied with the cosmology Ha Tikva cited. Was hoping for more, but I will look into it more now that I have the website you recommend janedoe.

 

[claymcdermott]

And janedoe, I am really not your enemy here. When I comment on Mormon stuff it usually to tell everybody to be nice, hence my opening paragraph.

I was legit trying to express how the average person living outside of the Book of Mormon Belt gets their first impression, and I was saying I know that cannot be right, because the first impression is so ridiculous, that many smart Mormons cannot really believe it, so I wanted to hear your side of it.

And we Catholics are cannibals by the way.

 

[claymcdermott]

Anyway, thanks for the sites guys!

 

[jane_doe]

And janedoe, I am really not your enemy here. When I comment on Mormon stuff it usually to tell everybody to be nice, hence my opening paragraph.

I was legit trying to express how the average person living outside of the Book of Mormon Belt gets their first impression, and I was saying I know that cannot be right, because the first impression is so ridiculous, that many smart Mormons cannot really believe it, so I wanted to hear your side of it.

And we Catholics are cannibals by the way.

I realize in hindsight that I was uncalled for brash here. I apologize for my earlier poor behavior. I’m sorry.

Re-starting on hopefully a better foot this time: yes, I do realize that LDS beliefs sound strange from an outside perspective. For from-the-source Mormonism 101, I really do recommend Mormon.org and I myself can help you with questions to ( I’m in a much better mood now that I’ve had dinner). I should have some open time around lunchtime tomorrow too.

 

[claymcdermott]

Well, I find the Kolob thing unsatisfying even as the website Hatikva gave described it, but that is a philosophical thing, and that will be a long convo, so, skip that one, ha
I see how someone could think that and not be totally crazy

But, okay, so, Lucy Harris. You know, I read the trial and it still…I mean, do you have any articles on that which I could read? I mean, based on what I have read, it just sounds so…
And I mean, you do not have to go to toilet sites to get a negative view of Smith. I mean, the one Mormon writer I had any real exposure to was Orson Pratt. So, you know, the story there is not…can I trust Smith? Does it matter? It would seem to, right?
Any articles on that?

And everything about prehistoric America, and I mean, the stuff which I do know for sure that Smith said is really tough to square with what I learned from my studies. Any articles on that, like, that maybe Smith was being symbolic with everything?

Anyway, thanks for links or anything on the two things I mention.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I realize in hindsight that I was uncalled for brash here. I apologize for my earlier poor behavior. I’m sorry.

Re-starting on hopefully a better foot this time: yes, I do realize that LDS beliefs sound strange from an outside perspective. For from-the-source Mormonism 101, I really do recommend Mormon.org and I myself can help you with questions to ( I’m in a much better mood now that I’ve had dinner). I should have some open time around lunchtime tomorrow too.

I haven’t had much luck finding answers to the something rather than nothing question from a Mormon perspective, even with the sources you mention. Particularly, it seems to me as though there must be a reason why there is something rather than nothing, and that nothing I can find in Mormon sources can be the answer - so even accepting the Mormon account as far as it goes, there would still have to be a more fundamental first cause.

Those (very unofficial, which is why I’m asking) sites I have found that do try to address the question from a Mormon perspective have either dismissed the question as unimportant by saying that since we know there is stuff, we don’t need that answer (which I think misses the point); or simply says that there is a bunch of coeternal stuff without addressing any of the objections that are raised to that idea (beyond attempting to discredit the origins of the ex nihilio teachings of mainstream Christianity).

Are you aware of anywhere I could read more on the subject from a Mormon perspective?

 

[claymcdermott]

Hatikvas source seems to say that Mormons believe that the Universe always was, as a lotta people do.

That does not satisfy me either, but it is not so out there.

 

[jane_doe]

But, okay, so, Lucy Harris. You know, I read the trial and it still…I mean, do you have any articles on that which I could read? I mean, based on what I have read, it just sounds so…

Just as crazy as the idea that some guy living thousands of years ago somehow fixes all the bad stuff you do today?

Just as crazy as the idea that some all powerful divine unity has nothing better to do than use flaming foliage as some divine walky-talky?

Just as crazy as the idea that a cracker turns into human flesh- and then you’re supposed to eat it?

So, you know, the story there is not…can I trust Smith? Does it matter? It would seem to, right?.

Relevant fact: Mormons believe that there’s only been ONE perfect person on this Earth, and that’s Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith (and all the other billions of people in the world) are openly acknowledged to have made mistakes. Men of God are still MEN.

Good apologetics site on this: jefflindsay.com/fallible.shtml

And everything about prehistoric America, and I mean, the stuff which I do know for sure that Smith said is really tough to square with what I learned from my studies. Any articles on that, like, that maybe Smith was being symbolic with everything?

Couple of revenant facts–

• The Book of Mormon describes events of only a small portion of the American people, mostly centered around a few villages.
• The Book of Mormon is NOT a history book, rather it’s primary focus is religious in nature, specifically to lead people to Christ. The authors openly state that the history they describe is simplified because that’s not it’s focus.
• Some parts are symbolic, yes. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

Another apologetic website: jefflindsay.com/BOMIntro.shtml
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml

 

[claymcdermott]

Thanks for the links to the America stuff.

So, obviously, I am rather comfortable with the idea of a loving God and a surprising Universe where grace comes unexpectedly. I am fine with the crazy and the weird, in fact I like it better.
But for each Bible thing that might sound crazy you mention, there are reasons why someone might think that stuff. I want to hear the positive reasons you think what you do with the Lucy thing.

And the Lucy Harris story as I understand it does not sound crazy or weird. It falls totally within the realm of experience, because, I’ve consumed a decent amount of Skeptic media and James Randi. ha

Anyway, you did not seem to send anything to really explain Lucy though. Do you have anything I could read on her?

 

[jane_doe]

I haven’t had much luck finding answers to the something rather than nothing question from a Mormon perspective, even with the sources you mention. Particularly, it seems to me as though there must be a reason why there is something rather than nothing, and that nothing I can find in Mormon sources can be the answer - so even accepting the Mormon account as far as it goes, there would still have to be a more fundamental first cause.

Those (very unofficial, which is why I’m asking) sites I have found that do try to address the question from a Mormon perspective have either dismissed the question as unimportant by saying that since we know there is stuff, we don’t need that answer (which I think misses the point); or simply says that there is a bunch of coeternal stuff without addressing any of the objections that are raised to that idea (beyond attempting to discredit the origins of the ex nihilio teachings of mainstream Christianity).

Are you aware of anywhere I could read more on the subject from a Mormon perspective?

Couple of reverent facts:

1. LDS do not believe in the First Cause ideology. Hence your difficulty researching the topic. LDS also staunchly reject creation exnihlio.
2. LDS faith openly embrace that we don’t know everything at this time and that God will reveal more to us later. Majority of questions of the metaphysical-orgiin-of-the-universe type fall into the “God will reveal the answer to us later” category, and hence now viewed as being unimportant (there’s a trust is God for answers to come in the future). Rather than metaphysics, LDS focus on creation is on the purpose and the mighty plan of salvation.

(Yes, I realize that this approach is maddening to people used to a closed-cannon, and I’m sorry for that but there’s not a way around it. )

Some general resource on creation:
lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-5-the-creation?lang=eng
lds.org/general-conference/2000/04/the-creation?lang=eng&_r=1
lds.org/scriptures/gs/create-creation?lang=eng

Un-official apologetics website on the matter: en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_view_of_the_creation/Creatio_ex_nihilo
Scripture rejecting ex nihilio: lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/131.7-8?lang=eng

 

[jane_doe]

I want to hear the positive reasons you think what you do with the Lucy thing.

Why do you think it’s damning? It’s a story of a person’s impatience, wanting things done on THIER time table and not God’s, people then caving into temptation to do things their way, and getting burned for it (because God does know best). God then forgives the trespasses of men, but there are still consequences to be had. It’s a narrative repeated over and over again throughout time and scripture, starting right with the Fall.

Here’s a couple of links going over the events:
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Manuscript,_Lost_116_Pages
lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-instructors-guide-religion-324-325/the-lost-manuscript-lesson-3-sections-3-10?lang=eng
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/The_lost_116_pages

 

[claymcdermott]

Well, I think you can probably tell why someone might look at that at a cursory level and be suspicious.

But thank you for the links. I will investigate them. Mormonism jdoes not seem like it squares with any of the stuff I think or how I think, but I am glad to learn about it.

But, I am a big history guy,and have an interest in the American West, and I actually do find the story of the early Mormon church, at least after Smith died, really inspiring and interesting. And I am actually willing to see Gods hand in settling Utah. So, thanks for the links to learn about the beliefs of people from history I do admire.

 

[jane_doe]

Well, I think you can probably tell why someone might look at that at a cursory level and be suspicious.

Of course.

But, I am a big history guy,and have an interest in the American West, and I actually do find the story of the early Mormon church, at least after Smith died, really inspiring and interesting. And I am actually willing to see Gods hand in settling Utah. So, thanks for the links to learn about the beliefs of people from history I do admire.

Cool. Let me know if you have any questions- happy to help.