So let's talk about today's readings 4/9/10

[cheeto1]

Reading 1
Acts 4:1-12
After the crippled man had been cured,
while Peter and John were still speaking to the people,
the priests, the captain of the temple guard,
and the Sadducees confronted them,
disturbed that they were teaching the people
and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.
They laid hands on Peter and John
and put them in custody until the next day,
since it was already evening.
But many of those who heard the word came to believe
and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

On the next day, their leaders, elders, and scribes
were assembled in Jerusalem, with Annas the high priest,
Caiaphas, John, Alexander,
and all who were of the high-priestly class.
They brought them into their presence and questioned them,
“By what power or by what name have you done this?”
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, answered them,
“Leaders of the people and elders:
If we are being examined today
about a good deed done to a cripple,
namely, by what means he was saved,
then all of you and all the people of Israel should know
that it was in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean
whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead;
in his name this man stands before you healed.
He is the stone rejected by you, the builders,
which has become the cornerstone.
There is no salvation through anyone else,
nor is there any other name under heaven
given to the human race by which we are to be saved.”

Ps 118:1-2 and 4, 22-24, 25-27a
Responsorial Psalm
R. (22) The stone rejected by the builders has become the cornerstone.
or:
R. Alleluia.
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,
for his mercy endures forever.
Let the house of Israel say,
“His mercy endures forever.”
Let those who fear the LORD say,
“His mercy endures forever.”
R. The stone rejected by the builders has become the cornerstone.
or:
R. Alleluia.
The stone which the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.
By the LORD has this been done;
it is wonderful in our eyes.
This is the day the LORD has made;
let us be glad and rejoice in it.
R. The stone rejected by the builders has become the cornerstone.
or:
R. Alleluia.
O LORD, grant salvation!
O LORD, grant prosperity!
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD;
we bless you from the house of the LORD.
The LORD is God, and he has given us light.
R. The stone rejected by the builders has become the cornerstone.
or:
R. Alleluia.

Jn 21:1-14
Gospel
Jesus revealed himself again to his disciples at the Sea of Tiberias.
He revealed himself in this way.
Together were Simon Peter, Thomas called Didymus,
Nathanael from Cana in Galilee,
Zebedee’s sons, and two others of his disciples.
Simon Peter said to them, “I am going fishing.”
They said to him, “We also will come with you.”
So they went out and got into the boat,
but that night they caught nothing.
When it was already dawn, Jesus was standing on the shore;
but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
Jesus said to them, “Children, have you caught anything to eat?”
They answered him, “No.”
So he said to them, “Cast the net over the right side of the boat
and you will find something.”
So they cast it, and were not able to pull it in
because of the number of fish.
So the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord.”
When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord,
he tucked in his garment, for he was lightly clad,
and jumped into the sea.
The other disciples came in the boat,
for they were not far from shore, only about a hundred yards,
dragging the net with the fish.
When they climbed out on shore,
they saw a charcoal fire with fish on it and bread.
Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you just caught.”
So Simon Peter went over and dragged the net ashore
full of one hundred fifty-three large fish.
Even though there were so many, the net was not torn.
Jesus said to them, “Come, have breakfast.”
And none of the disciples dared to ask him, “Who are you?”
because they realized it was the Lord.
Jesus came over and took the bread and gave it to them,
and in like manner the fish.
This was now the third time Jesus was revealed to his disciples
after being raised from the dead.

 

[cheeto1]

" it was in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean
whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead"
– Peter seems to pretty clearly blame those who crucified Jesus for killing Him.
He doesn’t say, “I killed Him by my sins”.

"This is the day the LORD has made; let us be glad and rejoice in it.
– So I just have to keep saying this. But doesn’t anyone feel sad when their
loved one is brutally killed? Is it enough for their happiness to know their
loved one is safe with God now? Doesn’t anyone need time to recover from
something awful? Yet it seems like we are just supposed to “flip a switch”
and have instant joy. Well, I feel relieved as soon as Holy Saturday comes,
because Jesus is done dying. Yet He was really done before lent ever started.

Jesus said to them, “Come, have breakfast.”
– Who likes fish for breakfast? Well, this is a great story of joy. If I was there,
it would be easy to live the joy of this moment. Why would they think of asking
Him who He was? Doesn’t He look like Himself? And why did they listen to His
crazy idea about the net if they didn’t know it was Him

 

[FRANCISPIE]

i didn’t read them

 

[rcjones]

In sensus plenior:

Think about Jesus as a baby growing into a man. There was a time he had to discover who he was and what he was to do. The book of John reveals how he discovered himself through the Word, Works, and Life.

We hear the Word, see and understand the Works, and walk the Life. The opposite of this is being deaf, blind and lame. This trinity of terms for God’s revelation of himself will be found throughout the book of John.

The passages of the reading are referring to the third time Jesus has shown himself to Peter.
The first time Peter heard him, the second time Peter saw him as they all examined his hands and side. In this third time, it ends with Peter walking with Jesus.

So after Peter has heard and seen him, he decides to go fishing. Nothing is inherently wrong with fishing unless Christ has specifically told you to be a fisher of men. So the symbols in the story reflect Peter’s less than obedient state.

All together there were seven of the disciples. Seven represent ‘all’ and so the group represented all the disciples. Peter had led all the disciple away from Christ.

Peter is fishing in the dark, (without the word) which is where John previously said is where men hide in sin. (John 3). He was also naked. Also a symbol of having your sin exposed. (without works) He is fishing out the left side of the boat which represents the fleshly or earthly side (sheep on the right, goats on the left). (without Life).

It is no wonder that he caught nothing. It says that when the morning was come, Jesus was standing there. Jesus is not only the Morning Star, he is the morning of Genesis 1. The mediator between dark and light, grace and law.

Christ’s reference to meat is to the meat offering, which is bread. This is why he provides bread for them rather than beef. The meat offering is a fellowship offering. He is desiring fellowship with them.

He tells them to cast the net on the sheep (right) side of the boat, and they are unable to lift the net. He had called them to be fishers of sheep (men), so he blessed their fishing on the sheep side.

Once Peter was clothed, he cast himself into the sea, reminiscent of Jonah, and a submission to God for judgment.

Now we have an unnoticed miracle. The net that couldn’t be lifted by the seven in the boat, was now lifted by Peter alone. This is significant. There were 153 fish.

Jesus gave them bread and fish. Since man does not live by bread alone, the fish represent “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. The bread represent Christ’s body which was given for us.

So, hear this carefully so as not to accuse me of heresy, the cross alone was not sufficient for us individually… we must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. The cross does not save us without us walking with Christ. I am not denying salvation by faith alone. But it must be a personal faith, not blanket salvation offered by the cross.

Peter had denied Christ three times. The details can be visited later, but he denied him in Word, Works, and Life. And so Jesus reconciles with Peter three times and he is told to feed Christ’s sheep. Well what is he to feed them? The 153 fish.

144 fish are for Israel and the church, the other nine leave three each for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Why three? Because each is revealed in Word, Works, and Life. All three persons of the godhead desire fellowship with us. Peter is to feed the sheep “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”.

It end with Peter walking with God, as a symbol of him living in Christ.

So we can hear God call, and even understand his word, but we are not walking with him until we live by every word that proceeds from His mouth.

 

[cheeto1]

i didn’t read them

did you read them yet?
Is there something you want to share?

 

[cheeto1]

In sensus plenior:

Think about Jesus as a baby growing into a man. There was a time he had to discover who he was and what he was to do. The book of John reveals how he discovered himself through the Word, Works, and Life.

We hear the Word, see and understand the Works, and walk the Life. The opposite of this is being deaf, blind and lame. This trinity of terms for God’s revelation of himself will be found throughout the book of John.

The passages of the reading are referring to the third time Jesus has shown himself to Peter.
The first time Peter heard him, the second time Peter saw him as they all examined his hands and side. In this third time, it ends with Peter walking with Jesus.

So after Peter has heard and seen him, he decides to go fishing. Nothing is inherently wrong with fishing unless Christ has specifically told you to be a fisher of men. So the symbols in the story reflect Peter’s less than obedient state.

All together there were seven of the disciples. Seven represent ‘all’ and so the group represented all the disciples. Peter had led all the disciple away from Christ.

Peter is fishing in the dark, (without the word) which is where John previously said is where men hide in sin. (John 3). He was also naked. Also a symbol of having your sin exposed. (without works) He is fishing out the left side of the boat which represents the fleshly or earthly side (sheep on the right, goats on the left). (without Life).

It is no wonder that he caught nothing. It says that when the morning was come, Jesus was standing there. Jesus is not only the Morning Star, he is the morning of Genesis 1. The mediator between dark and light, grace and law.

Christ’s reference to meat is to the meat offering, which is bread. This is why he provides bread for them rather than beef. The meat offering is a fellowship offering. He is desiring fellowship with them.

He tells them to cast the net on the sheep (right) side of the boat, and they are unable to lift the net. He had called them to be fishers of sheep (men), so he blessed their fishing on the sheep side.

Once Peter was clothed, he cast himself into the sea, reminiscent of Jonah, and a submission to God for judgment.

Now we have an unnoticed miracle. The net that couldn’t be lifted by the seven in the boat, was now lifted by Peter alone. This is significant. There were 153 fish.

Jesus gave them bread and fish. Since man does not live by bread alone, the fish represent “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. The bread represent Christ’s body which was given for us.

So, hear this carefully so as not to accuse me of heresy, the cross alone was not sufficient for us individually… we must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. The cross does not save us without us walking with Christ. I am not denying salvation by faith alone. But it must be a personal faith, not blanket salvation offered by the cross.

Peter had denied Christ three times. The details can be visited later, but he denied him in Word, Works, and Life. And so Jesus reconciles with Peter three times and he is told to feed Christ’s sheep. Well what is he to feed them? The 153 fish.

144 fish are for Israel and the church, the other nine leave three each for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Why three? Because each is revealed in Word, Works, and Life. All three persons of the godhead desire fellowship with us. Peter is to feed the sheep “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”.

It end with Peter walking with God, as a symbol of him living in Christ.

So we can hear God call, and even understand his word, but we are not walking with him until we live by every word that proceeds from His mouth.

Wow. Did you think of all this symbolism on your own? This is a large and
comprehensive study you have done on this reading. I wonder, knowing all
this, if something struck you about these readings today? Maybe something
you hadn’t already studied…

 

[rcjones]

Wow. Did you think of all this symbolism on your own? This is a large and
comprehensive study you have done on this reading. I wonder, knowing all
this, if something struck you about these readings today? Maybe something
you hadn’t already studied…

Yes and no. It is the result of my own study, but it is not invention. It is the result of correlation of scripture. Every symbol is supported by 2 or 3 ‘witness’ scriptures, and if they are true must be the same everywhere they are used in scripture.

The method was available in the first century, and I believe there is evidence in the writings of the apostles, and in Jesus’ sayings to show that they were also familiar with it. I am hoping that someone here may be familiar with it as well, since I have some questions.

The method also resolves many supposed contradictions in the scriptures.

For the reading itself, there are more details but I just gave a cursory overview. When I first studied the sensus plenior in John, I did not see the parallel between Peter’s three disobediences and the word,works,life pattern that is predominant in the book. So that part was a new insight in reading it again.

 

[Nita]

So after Peter has heard and seen him, he decides to go fishing. Nothing is inherently wrong with fishing unless Christ has specifically told you to be a fisher of men. So the symbols in the story reflect Peter’s less than obedient state.

Peter wasn’t being disobedient. The apostles were not yet supposed to be out “fishing for men” - as the above passage from Acts makes clear. Verse 4 tells us that at some point after the Lake of Tiberias event, Jesus again appeared to them and told them to continue to wait – in Jerusalem for a short time (10 days) until the Holy Spirit came.Acts 1:3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God. 1:4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me, 1:5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” …1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama’ria and to the end of the earth."

All together there were seven of the disciples. Seven represent ‘all’ and so the group represented all the disciples. Peter had led all the disciple away from Christ.

I don’t understand. In what way had he led them away from Christ?

Christ’s reference to meat is to the meat offering, which is bread. This is why he provides bread for them rather than beef. The meat offering is a fellowship offering. He is desiring fellowship with them.

Could you explain what you mean by “Christ’s reference to meat…”? I’ve read thru gospel passage a couple of times and cannot find any direct reference, or even what would seem to be a symbolic reference to meat or the meat offering.

 

[Nita]

When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord,
he tucked in his garment, for he was lightly clad,
and jumped into the sea.

I try to imagine how strong that interior desire/longing/love for Our Lord must have been within Peter ------- a grown man leaping into the water to swim because the boat couldn’t get him there fast enough. What joy it must have been for him, and the other apostles, whenever Jesus would appear to them.
Sometimes I experience a strong “heart pull” to visit Our Lord in the tabernacle, to be close to Him; but I imagine it’s only a fraction of what Peter experienced.

 

[rcjones]

Peter wasn’t being disobedient. The apostles were not yet supposed to be out “fishing for men” - as the above passage from Acts makes clear. Verse 4 tells us that at some point after the Lake of Tiberias event, Jesus again appeared to them and told them to continue to wait – in Jerusalem for a short time (10 days) until the Holy Spirit came.Acts 1:3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God. 1:4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me, 1:5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” …1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama’ria and to the end of the earth."

I don’t understand. In what way had he led them away from Christ?

You answered this for yourself… How far is the sea of Tiberias from Jerusalem? If you were told to wait in Jerusalem, would you consider yourself obedient if you went fishing on the sea of Tiberias? And if you led others away from Jerusalem?

The more important point is that Peter had already met Jesus twice, and he is still not reconciled with him. This is his greatest disobedience and what led to the act of going fishing.

Could you explain what you mean by “Christ’s reference to meat…”? I’ve read thru gospel passage a couple of times and cannot find any direct reference, or even what would seem to be a symbolic reference to meat or the meat offering.

John 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

He asked them for meat then gave them bread. When you read of the meat offering in Leviticus, it is an offering of bread and a foreshadow of the Eucharist which bread is the meat or flesh of Christ.

 

[Benadam]

rcjones quote:
Peter had denied Christ three times. The details can be visited later, but he denied him in Word, Works, and Life. And so Jesus reconciles with Peter three times and he is told to feed Christ’s sheep. Well what is he to feed them? The 153 fish.

Responsorial Psalm
R. (22) The stone rejected by the builders has become the cornerstone.

Three times this response is made. Very interesting.

 

[Nita]

You answered this for yourself… How far is the sea of Tiberias from Jerusalem? If you were told to wait in Jerusalem, would you consider yourself obedient if you went fishing on the sea of Tiberias? And if you led others away from Jerusalem?

This is a later appearance - after the Tiberias appearance. It is the day of Our Lord’s Ascension. At the time of the Tiberias appearance Jesus had not yet told them to stay in Jerusalem. (One cannot be disobedient to a command before it’s even been given.) It is only later, on the day He intends to ascend to heaven, that He tells them to remain in Jerusalem for the short time until the Holy Spirit comes.

The more important point is that Peter had already met Jesus twice, and he is still not reconciled with him. This is his greatest disobedience and what led to the act of going fishing.

In what way is he not reconciled with Jesus.

John 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

He asked them for meat then gave them bread. When you read of the meat offering in Leviticus, it is an offering of bread and a foreshadow of the Eucharist which bread is the meat or flesh of Christ.

John 21:4 Just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 21:5 Jesus said to them,** “Children, have you any fish?” **They answered him, “No.” 21:6 He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.”

My translation is different. Will check out the Greek, but right now it’s time for Mass.

 

[rcjones]

This is a later appearance - after the Tiberias appearance. It is the day of Our Lord’s Ascension. At the time of the Tiberias appearance Jesus had not yet told them to stay in Jerusalem. (One cannot be disobedient to a command before it’s even been given.) It is only later, on the day He intends to ascend to heaven, that He tells them to remain in Jerusalem for the short time until the Holy Spirit comes.

Oops, you are correct, I hadn’t checked after a long day. Sorry… The essence was the reconciliation.

In what way is he not reconciled with Jesus.

This is the reconciliation. He had denied Christ three times, and now Jesus gives him the opportunity to confirm his love three times.

John 21:4 Just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 21:5 Jesus said to them,** “Children, have you any fish?” **They answered him, “No.” 21:6 He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.”

My translation is different. Will check out the Greek, but right now it’s time for Mass.

Technically the word is ’ prosphagion’ which means to ‘eat with’. It is used to speak of the things eaten with bread. It can be used to refer to meat or to fish, the sense is really more ‘flesh’, than meat as we know it.

 

[rcjones]

I missed some quotes above, it should be:

John 21:4 Just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 21:5 Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any fish?” They answered him, “No.” 21:6 He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.”

My translation is different. Will check out the Greek, but right now it’s time for Mass.

Technically the word is ’ prosphagion’ which means to ‘eat with’. It is used to speak of the things eaten with bread. It can be used to refer to meat or to fish, the sense is really more ‘flesh’, than meat as we know it.

---

Here is the proper answer to reconciliation:

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Peter’s denial would pierce his heart continually, it would stand in the way of his public preaching, and perhaps, Jesus would even have to deny Peter to the Father, without this semi-public three-fold reconciliation.

 

[Nita]

Technically the word is ’ prosphagion’ which means to ‘eat with’. It is used to speak of the things eaten with bread. It can be used to refer to meat or to fish, the sense is really more ‘flesh’, than meat as we know it.

Thanks. I discovered the same thing. Could have saved myself some time if I’d checked this thread first when I got home from Mass.
I ran a search on the Greek word and it seems to be the only time it is used in the New Testament. Not sure about the OT Septuagint.

Also, found the Douay Rheims translates it “meat”.

---

Here is the proper answer to reconciliation:

Peter’s denial would pierce his heart continually, …

Since repentance is what is required on our part in order to be reconciled to God, I have always considered that Peter’s reconciliation occurred with his repentance – when he went out and wept in sorrow for having denied Our Lord. Like you, I also think that the sorrow for his denial would “pierce his heart continually”. One of the legends says that Peter’s cheeks were permanently marked from all the tears he had shed because of his sorrow.

 

[Fidelis]

Technically the word is ’ prosphagion’ which means to ‘eat with’. It is used to speak of the things eaten with bread. It can be used to refer to meat or to fish, the sense is really more ‘flesh’, than meat as we know it.

Most translations render it as “fish,” except for the KJV and the DRV (Douay Rhiems Version), which have “meat.” The New American Bible has a somewhat neutral rendering : “Have you caught anything to eat?”

Interestingly, despite being a commentary on the DRV which has “meat,” the Haydock Commentary has this note:

Ver. 5. Have you any meat?: [That is,] Have you any thing to eat? This is what is literally signified, both in the Latin and in the Greek text.Numquid pulmentarium habetis? me ti prosphagion] (Witham)

 

[cheeto1]

When I first studied the sensus plenior in John, I did not see the parallel between Peter’s three disobediences and the word,works,life pattern that is predominant in the book. So that part was a new insight in reading it again.

Well, I thought He just made him say “I love you” 3 times to cancel out his 3-fold
denial. Despite your intense study, I am not so sure I agree with your saying that
Peter was disobedient in going fishing.

 

[rcjones]

Well, I thought He just made him say “I love you” 3 times to cancel out his 3-fold
denial. Despite your intense study, I am not so sure I agree with your saying that
Peter was disobedient in going fishing.

Simple semantics. Disobedient, not walking with Christ, not reconciled with Christ… the words are chosen to convey the idea that everything was not yet right between them.

But I would say that if you aren’t doing what Christ has called you to do, you are disobedient.

 

[Benadam]

Simple semantics. Disobedient, not walking with Christ, not reconciled with Christ… the words are chosen to convey the idea that everything was not yet right between them.

But I would say that if you aren’t doing what Christ has called you to do, you are disobedient.

Maybe Peter was seeking familiarity to help ward of the anxiety of waiting for what was to come of them. It’s not hard to conclude that fishing was most likely considered a livelihood he would not be returning to when Jesus was alive. I don’t find it a stretch to think that Peter’s doubt’s laid the path for his decision to go fishing. After all, Jesus had appeared and announced their Apostolic mission but they had not yet recieved the power from the Holy Spirit that enabled them to carry it out. I could see great anxiety in that. Commissioned to do what Christ had done yet knowing that the strength to do that was beyond you. " I’m going fishing" could possibly be viewed as a bit of an abondonment.

 

[rcjones]

Benadam,

Since you have been following the posts which consider sensus plenior for some time, you can see that without it, we would have to speculate about Peter’s motives in going fishing.

But IF <–big IF sensus plenior is real AND we interpret it correctly, then it is as authoritative as the literal and provides additional information to the literal to be used for interpretation and we are not left to speculate about it. We would consider the symbols and verify that they are true to the rest of scripture.

I have found that it resolves many such disagreements about theology, even the filioque.

If sensus plenior is real, then we have only read 1/4 of the information when we have read only the literal.