So let's talk about today's readings 5/14/09

[cheeto1]

usccb.org/nab/051409.shtml

In the first reading, the disciples choose another to take Judas’ place. They want to
choose someone who “accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus was with us”.
How many were there who accompanied the apostles the whole time? There were about 120 there at the time (incidentally, is that the number who choose a new pope?). My question is this: What if they were there when Jesus chose the 12 apostles? How do you think they felt when Jesus came down and chose the apostles, and they weren’t chosen? These are people who then stayed with them the whole time…

Today is the day of St. Matthias…

So what struck you about today’s readings? :bible1::twocents:

 

[jcrichton]

usccb.org/nab/051409.shtml

In the first reading, the disciples choose another to take Judas’ place. They want to
choose someone who “accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus was with us”.
How many were there who accompanied the apostles the whole time? There were about 120 there at the time (incidentally, is that the number who choose a new pope?). My question is this: What if they were there when Jesus chose the 12 apostles? How do you think they felt when Jesus came down and chose the apostles, and they weren’t chosen? These are people who then stayed with them the whole time…

Today is the day of St. Matthias…

So what struck you about today’s readings? :bible1::twocents:

Scriptures do not give a full account of everything that happened… we know that there were twelve chosen as His Disciples; these twelve were with Jesus on His Ministry; to them others were added; there are several numbers explicitly spoken about (Jesus send the twelve, He sent the 70 or was it 72, others were maintaining a parallel with His disciples by using Jesus’ Name to perform miracles, cures, and possibly exorcise demons, Jesus disciples were Baptizing along with or instead of Jesus Himself, Jesus appeared to the Disciples (Ten and then Eleven), Jesus appeared to various disciples and even to a group of 500 disciples…); I think that the distiction was made between those who were constant in their discipleship and those who were less consistent in their devotion and fellowship… as far as “feelings” there are always different levels of interest in Scriptures: John was the disciple Jesus loved most (we know this because he reveals that in his Gospel–there is little more than John’s own testament to go on, but he places himself not as Jesus “número uno” but as His most beloved; Kephas is demonstratively “A number one” since Jesus Commands him to the care of His followers, prays for Him especially, gives him the Keys of the Kingdom, He founded His Church on him, paid for his taxes, hanged around his house… so much as today, there would have been those who thought that Jesus was not fair in choosing those whom He did or that they would have better served Him if only He would have allowed them to be part of His inner circle (there’s that little window of the mother who seeks to hold the preferred places for her own sons; clearly, there must have been other incedents such as that one, even if not demonstrated as overtly as that one); what they missed, as do we, is that Jesus is not interested in glorifying our human capabilities (parable of the workers who get paid the same salary though there’s a difference in the amount of time and effort that each group/individual has vested in the field/land) but of being One with us as we abide in Him and become one with all of His disciples: the “me” movement (egocentrism) is dead in Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[cheeto1]

those who thought that Jesus was not fair in choosing those whom He did or that they would have better served Him if only He would have allowed them to be part of His inner circle; what they missed, as do we, is that Jesus is not interested in glorifying our human capabilities

Wow, thanks for your great answer…you said so much. You almost got to what I
really meant to ask. Naturally, Jesus was fair, He’s incapable of being unfair. That’s
my whole point. He IS the love of God. Therefore, if a group of people want to be
with Him, and He only chooses certain people, then wouldn’t the others feel bad?
That group of people were so willing to be with Him that they proved it by staying even
though they weren’t chosen. They had the humility of the woman who said, “even
the dogs eat the scraps that fall from their master’s table”. You see, if I was there,
and I didn’t realize who He was, and He chose all His disciples and I wasn’t in, I’d
probably have thought, “Oh well, He doesn’t really like me, I guess I’ll go home”.
But for the ones who stayed, He had more jobs for them…

 

[SFH]

Wow, thanks for your great answer…you said so much. You almost got to what I
really meant to ask. Naturally, Jesus was fair, He’s incapable of being unfair. That’s
my whole point. He IS the love of God. Therefore, if a group of people want to be
with Him, and He only chooses certain people, then wouldn’t the others feel bad?
That group of people were so willing to be with Him that they proved it by staying even
though they weren’t chosen. They had the humility of the woman who said, “even
the dogs eat the scraps that fall from their master’s table”. You see, if I was there,
and I didn’t realize who He was, and He chose all His disciples and I wasn’t in, I’d
probably have thought, “Oh well, He doesn’t really like me, I guess I’ll go home”.
But for the ones who stayed, He had more jobs for them…

We conceptualize the distribution of ministries differently than they did. Read St. Paul’s analogy to the body. The eye does one thing, the ear does a different thing. That doesn’t make the eye better than the ear. Apostles do one thing, disciples do another thing. That doesn’t make the Apostles better than the disciples.

 

[jcrichton]

Wow, thanks for your great answer…you said so much. You almost got to what I
really meant to ask. Naturally, Jesus was fair, He’s incapable of being unfair. That’s
my whole point. He IS the love of God. Therefore, if a group of people want to be
with Him, and He only chooses certain people, then wouldn’t the others feel bad?
That group of people were so willing to be with Him that they proved it by staying even
though they weren’t chosen. They had the humility of the woman who said, “even
the dogs eat the scraps that fall from their master’s table”. You see, if I was there,
and I didn’t realize who He was, and He chose all His disciples and I wasn’t in, I’d
probably have thought, “Oh well, He doesn’t really like me, I guess I’ll go home”.
But for the ones who stayed, He had more jobs for them…

I understand what you are saying… I think that that is a human condition… we have a need/tendency to feel/be wanted… we equate, specially with hollowood’s constant bombardment, love/acceptance with being placed before/ahead of others; it is not so with God–when we read through the Holy Scriptures we find that most of God’s close servants would usually be put through the ringer… even amongst Jesus’ Disciples we find one character which was almost always depicted as out-doing the rest, yet St. John reveals that it was he who was Jesus’ most loved disciple…

I think that the best measure of our relationship with Christ must be based on two key passages:

• Jesus sent His disciples to announce the Kingdom… when they returned they came back with war stories about they great accomplishments and He simply told them that they should not be as glad to know that demons were subjected to them (and the other things they were able to accomplish) but rather that their names be Written in Heaven! (St. Luke 10:1-20)
• St. Paul is drilling into Christians and he offers this perspective… we must live as if we had nothing or as if we lacked nothing–everything that we do we must do it in Christ! (1 Corinthians 7:29-31)

…again, the human condition does causes us to want, envy, jump into the wrong conclusion, run without a full understanding… it even weakens us and robs us of the opporutnities that God may send our way… yet, God is so very patient… always willing to meet us more than 90% the way… I hope that, had I been there, I would have emulated Kephas!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[cheeto1]

You guys are just great! You are so patient…
I’m really not talking about disciples, apostles, etc. in the way of who’s better
than someone else. What I am talking about is the idea of being excluded.
Does anybody know what a clique is? They are everywhere, even in church.
You are either in, or you’re out. I have been in, and I Am in… but I’ve also been
out, and I Am out. No one knew back then that Jesus was the Son of God, that He actually loved everybody. He picked 12 people to be His friends. But, there were
other people who stayed with them anyway. They did not feel excluded by not
being chosen. Or did they? Don’t answer me, you’ve worked hard enough
already!

 

[jcrichton]

You guys are just great! You are so patient…
I’m really not talking about disciples, apostles, etc. in the way of who’s better
than someone else. What I am talking about is the idea of being excluded.
Does anybody know what a clique is? They are everywhere, even in church.
You are either in, or you’re out. I have been in, and I Am in… but I’ve also been
out, and I Am out. No one knew back then that Jesus was the Son of God, that He actually loved everybody. He picked 12 people to be His friends. But, there were
other people who stayed with them anyway. They did not feel excluded by not
being chosen. Or did they? Don’t answer me, you’ve worked hard enough
already!

I fully understand this “clique” thing… when I was in hs I was involved in the performing arts… I was truly in for the enjoyment so it took me a long time to realize that I belonged to a clique… I believe that we, as human beings, tend to gravitate towards others with similar interestes and afinities (likes and dislikes); sadly, that harmless and natural tendency to group with those of similar interests has been so saturated with hollowood’s venon that for decades the cliques have evolved from innocuous associations to circles of egotistical hate mongers bent on debasing those that they consider of a lower echelon.

I agree that, to a certain degree, this happens even in today’s Church; but Christ was very conscious about His selection of the Twelve; they were representatives of the working class and unlike most of todays religious and non-religious leaders He did not seek to be sorrounded by the afluent and intellectuals… Christ was very pedestrian… I can only recall one place which He frequented (other than the various places where He would stay as His Ministry requested): Kephas’ home–and we know that Simon was a mere fisherman!

I must remind you that Jesus did not pick 12 people to be His friends… He picked them to be His disciples (eleven of which would become His Apostles); when we read through the Gospels we can verify that Jesus had a very generous heart… we also must realize that though only one particular passage mentions His personal relationship with a family outside of the twelve disciples, there could well have been many other relationships which did not make the Gospels’ text.

There are several distinct passages that speaks to Jesus’ friendly demeanor:

• He received and assisted a Roman soldier
• He conversed and preached to the Samaritan woman
• He, contrary to cultural norm, made Himself accessible to the children that gathered during His Teachings
• He selected Zacchaeus with whom to socialize
• The group of ladies that followed and served Him did not seem to be related to wealth or any other social importance
• When invited to a social event (wedding at Cana) He did not make Himself scarce
• Jesus was well known, in His home-town as the Son of the carpenter!

I think that you are combining two elements… from a human perspective Jesus, as a Rabbi, would have been thought of as a person that is not approachable–too many times our personal perspective is biased by our past experiences or by cultural protocol; yet, Jesus’ natural and and unpretentious deportment was obvious to the people as the crowds that constantly followed Him would demonstrate.

The second element might well be human self-esteem; when we lack self-esteem we tend to project our insecurities onto others (“He did not choose me…”); rather than facing the situation we run from it and begrudge them for our limitations.

Yet, as you noted, there were people other than the twelve who stayed with Jesus (two in particular come to mind: Nicodemus, one of Jesus’ secret disciples, and the young man who was present at Jesus’ arrest and dropped his cover and ran, naked, from the captors); I think that for the most part people felt at ease with Jesus and had very little problem with His choice of inner-circle… conversely, I truly feel that the mayority of the elite, both religious and secular, must have been fuming almost 24/7 since Jesus did not frequent their homes/establishments and to get close to Him they would have had to share the same physical space as the commoners…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[cheeto1]

I must remind you that Jesus did not pick 12 people to be His friends… He picked them to be His disciples

The second element might well be human self-esteem; when we lack self-esteem we tend to project our insecurities onto others (“He did not choose me…”); rather than facing the situation we run from it and begrudge them for our limitations.

Are you saying that if I was there, and I felt bad for not being chosen, that it would
be due to having low self esteem? Well, maybe I do. And maybe that’s the reason I
had to take so long to even answer you. Who wants to admit low self-esteem?
But as you pointed out, the high class ones with plenty of self esteem weren’t
chosen at all.

Anyway, we’ve been chosen today to do our part in furthering His kingdom here.

Thanks for all your comments!

 

[jcrichton]

Are you saying that if I was there, and I felt bad for not being chosen, that it would
be due to having low self esteem? Well, maybe I do. And maybe that’s the reason I
had to take so long to even answer you. Who wants to admit low self-esteem?
But as you pointed out, the high class ones with plenty of self esteem weren’t
chosen at all.

Anyway, we’ve been chosen today to do our part in furthering His kingdom here.

Thanks for all your comments!

I am saying that our response to others is due in part to our self esteem… when it is low we tend to project, deject, and blame; when it is high we tend to be secured and asimilate everything in a better light. Now, we also have those who suffer from an extravagant overly high self esteem, these tend to look down at everyone and everything and they miss the boat when it comes to spiritual understanding–Jesus often warned His disciples about them… He called them the blind that lead the blind…

On this issue of experiencing Jesus’ Ministry it would have been great but as you’ve pointed it out the Call was made to all, from Jesus’ contemporaries till the end of time, may most, if not all, who listen be as a composite of Simon, John, Zacchaeus, Saul, and Stephen!

(Comments)… glad to assit!

Maran atha!

Angel