So let's talk about today's readings 7/27/09

[cheeto1]

usccb.org/nab/readings/072709.shtml

“Moses turned and came down the mountain
with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands”
–I wonder how much those tablets weighed? It seems to say he needed both
hands to hold them too. I think I once figured out that he was 80 yrs old also…

“Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire
and then ground it down to powder,
which he scattered on the water and made the children of Israel drink it”
– What was the point of making them drink it? And what were they doing all
this time when Moses was doing all that work melting and grinding? It must
have taken hours at least. Did they all just sit quietly and watch him? Then did
they get cups and drink? What was the reason for drinking it?

“…They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out”
–does he think Moses was born yesterday? or did a calf really form of itself,
product of the demonic powers of the area, the calf conveniently representing
the baal already worshipped in the area…

I am sorry, but neither the psalm nor the gospel today strike me at all…

So what struck you about today’s readings? :bible1::twocents:

 

[MarcoPolo]

A few things strike me in the first reading.

1. The use of the term “grave sin” and “so grave a sin”…that’s the apologist in me seeing that.
2. The clarity in parallel of the people in Israel compared to our own lives…we lose hope when our inspiration is out of sight just like the Israelites lost hope when they didn’t see Moses for a while.
3. The 10 commandments didn’t last too long before they broke immediately after Moses came down from the mountain.
4. OSAS does not stand well against God saying: “Him only who has sinned against me will I strike out of my book.”

 

[kimbaichan]

Yeah, it seems like Aaron told a big fib to his brother.
I was really confused by the Word Among Us meditation on this today. (The Issraelites waited fourty yrs. for Moses to come down the mountain? They didn’t make a false god they just worshipped God wrongly?)
I get another commentary by e-mail, I’m gonna have to check and see what it says.

 

[Beachcomber]

Yeah, I thought the same thing about the calf coming out of the fire: did Aaron really think Moses was born yesterday–‘this calf came out.’ Looks to me as if Aaron was trying to cover his butt. He wasn’t doing a good job of managing the Israelites while Moses was up on the Mountain and when the results of his poor became evident (the calf), he doesn’t own up.

 

[nannyma]

usccb.org/nab/readings/072709.shtml

“Moses turned and came down the mountain
with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands”
–I wonder how much those tablets weighed? It seems to say he needed both
hands to hold them too. I think I once figured out that he was 80 yrs old also…

“Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire
and then ground it down to powder,
which he scattered on the water and made the children of Israel drink it”
– What was the point of making them drink it? And what were they doing all
this time when Moses was doing all that work melting and grinding? It must
have taken hours at least. Did they all just sit quietly and watch him? Then did
they get cups and drink? What was the reason for drinking it?

“…They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out”
–does he think Moses was born yesterday? or did a calf really form of itself,
product of the demonic powers of the area, the calf conveniently representing
the baal already worshipped in the area…

I am sorry, but neither the psalm nor the gospel today strike me at all…

So what struck you about today’s readings? :bible1::twocents:

Hello Cheeto, I'll tackle the psalm for you. such potent words:106:20 They exchanged their glory for a grass-eating bullock" Recall another psalm where it says:"Wait for the Lord ,be stouthearted and wait for the Lord! After all that was done for them in Egypt,coming out of Egypt and in the desert. Instead of thinking of all the Lord had done for them and was in the process of doing even more by Moses discussing the situation with the Lord. Line 23 is awesome awesome "but Moses, His chosen one,withstood him in the breach to turn back his destructive wrath"_________was that Moses?was that Jesus! I must add that Our Father's destructive wrath was equaled by His Abundant Mercy and of course this mercy was spoken by HIs Word made flesh. God Bless,nannyma

 

[Huiou_Theou]

usccb.org/nab/readings/072709.shtml

“Moses turned and came down the mountain
with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands”
–I wonder how much those tablets weighed? It seems to say he needed both
hands to hold them too. I think I once figured out that he was 80 yrs old also…

His arms became tired in the wars which follow, as he held his arms in blessing over the Israelite army. In those, it talks of others holding his arms aloft. Here we have Jesus the son of Nun with Moses coming down the side of the mountain; Scripture doesn’t say it – but I think Moses had help if/when he needed it.

“Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire
and then ground it down to powder,
which he scattered on the water and made the children of Israel drink it”
– What was the point of making them drink it?

I think the innocent were mixed with the guilty. It would be easy to say everyone was guilty, but the point of the action of Moses is later prescribed to find out the guilty wife in sexual adultery when the answer is not known for certain. Numbers 5:16-21.

There ought be no dust in the clean temple – and no pagan idol in the wilderness.
It is as if God said in his mercy – I will wipe out only the ones who sinned – that not all were guilty directly. It is also the beginning of the idea that idol worship is adultery; and that no one has power over God.

yet, God hears them even in this sin. He makes an Ark of Gold; places on it a chair fit for a man to sit on – but requires it be empty of an image. Then he places the images of angels of pure gold overshadowing the seat with their wings to hide who sits there. Remember, Israel, you saw no image on the mountain. Only Moses saw God, and then only the image from the back side for a brief moment – which made him Glow in brightest light.

And what were they doing all
this time when Moses was doing all that work melting and grinding? It must
have taken hours at least. Did they all just sit quietly and watch him? Then did
they get cups and drink? What was the reason for drinking it?

If one is innocent, what guilt is there in drinking the Gold cleansed by fire?
I imagine AAron’s argument is the same; fire purifies, so how I am guilty if I burned it? Let the punishment fit the crime.

The ten commandments had not yet been delivered; They made an image of what they thought God was like – foolishly. He was styled after the God’s in Egypt – though all visions and revelations in the years from then to the time of Christ would show that God preferred the image of a man as his image. For, in his image, God made man. Not the other way around.

“…They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out”
–does he think Moses was born yesterday?

And Moses threw it into the fire, and then possibly water while molten, which might shatter it. And then ground the tiny pieces into dust. If Aaron’s idea was clean – Moses’s was cleaner. Gold hamburger, bread for the foolish. Remember man you are dust, and to dust you shall return.

I expect that the grinding was not so much for the guilty, as for the gullible. Those who saw the calf and thought how magnificent, how beautiful, how powerful.
Turned into bitter hamburger by Moses’ hands.
Yet our lord will Choose the image of the Lamb as that which is sacrificed, and St. Paul will say – Those who eat and drink of the Eucharist unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of our Lord. It is as if the dust made bread is the Judgment of guilt or innocence. As the darkness was shade in the desert, but an abyss in Egypt. That the same thing can be a blessing or a curse depending on the the person’s sin before God.

I expect they had a choice – drink it, or chop! chop!. Plenty of time to decide.
I wonder how long many of them lived before the punishment set in?
How many of them, if they did not die immediately, thought themselves vindicated – and did not realize the 40 years of purification could still end in a death sentence.

 

[cheeto1]

I expect they had a choice – drink it, or chop! chop!. Plenty of time to decide.
I wonder how long many of them lived before the punishment set in?

Chop chop? What do you mean? Moses would kill them if they didn’t drink it?
What was the punishment? Did it really strike only the guilty? Thanks for pointing
out the connection between the Numbers story, this, and the eucharist.

Oh yeah, I forgot about young Joshua. I’m sure this isn’t the only time his help
was overlooked…

 

[cheeto1]

“but Moses, His chosen one,withstood him in the breach to turn back his destructive wrath”_________was that Moses?was that Jesus!

hello nannyma,

Do you think Moses did that because he felt sorry for the people since they
thought maybe he was dead or never coming back? He had led them this far,
they had experienced his miracles, but now that was a lifetime ago. Yes you
are right, there are major comparisons between Moses and Jesus. A man on
talk radio today pointed out that when Moses was born, innocent babies were
being killed. Then when Jesus was born, more innocent babies were being killed.
He compared these 2 events with all the abortions of today and said, “what will
happen now?”

Do you think that without the eucharist, people would have still wanted to make
an idol when Jesus was no longer with them?

 

[cheeto1]

did Aaron really think Moses was born yesterday–‘this calf came out.’ … He wasn’t doing a good job of managing the Israelites

You know, Moses had a hard time with them too. But Moses could cry to the Lord
and get relief. I guess Aaron couldn’t do that, seeing as God was busy on the
mountain with Moses. I wonder if he tried? I wonder if he told the people, “Moses
will come back”, or did he think Moses wasn’t coming back too?

 

[cheeto1]

I was really confused by the Word Among Us meditation on this today. (The Issraelites waited fourty yrs. for Moses to come down the mountain? They didn’t make a false god they just worshipped God wrongly?)

kimbaichan, i am so happy to hear from you. I don’t think I’ve seen you before…
I myself have enjoyed the Word Among Us, and various other commentarites.
Every so often, Copland comes and posts a link to even more commentaries.
They are all good, but…
My idea is, I want to hear your commentary.
When you read the readings, before you even read the commentaries, what jumped
out at you?
Hope to hear from you again…

 

[cheeto1]

A few things strike me in the first reading.

1. The use of the term “grave sin” and “so grave a sin”…that’s the apologist in me seeing that.
2. The clarity in parallel of the people in Israel compared to our own lives…we lose hope when our inspiration is out of sight just like the Israelites lost hope when they didn’t see Moses for a while.
3. The 10 commandments didn’t last too long before they broke immediately after Moses came down from the mountain.
4. OSAS does not stand well against God saying: “Him only who has sinned against me will I strike out of my book.”

Do you think it’s possible that the Israelites just did this grave sin out of lonliness,
sadness, and a general feeling of being lost in the world since they thought they’d
probably never see Moses again? Why do you think Moses broke the tablets in
his anger? Do you think maybe he figured God would never forgive them anyway
so they were no longer needed? How do you think God decided who to strike out
of His book? What do you think about Huiou Theou’s comment that some who
weren’t struck immediately figured they’d been vindicated?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Exodus 32:27 - 39

RKB.

So he (Moses) stood there at the gate of the camp, and said, rally to my side, all that will take the Lord’s part. Then the whole tribe of Levi gathered round them, and he said, A message to you from the Lord God of Israel. Gird on your swords, and pass to and fro through the middle of the camp, from gate to gate, killing your own brothers, your own friends, your own neighbors. So the son’s of Levi did as he bade them. … Today, said Moses, at war with your own flesh and blood, you have dedicated your hands to the Lord’s service, and earned his blessing.

It’s quite harsh. Moses appears to think they were all guilty.
Then he plays here the same part as St. Paul says he would if it could have any value; putting his own salvation on the block:

Exodus: 32:31 – Thy people have sinned heinously in making themselves God’s of gold. I entreat thee, pardon this offense of theirs, or else blot my name out too of the record which you have written.

When looking back, it would seem that the Israelites were already told not to make images of things on the earth or below it to represent God – though I am not certain the text is chronological. Exodus 20 is where the covenant is invoked – and yet Moses does not come down the mountain with the carvings until chapter 32.
It is possible that Moses delivered the words to the people through the Elders and AAron; such that not all knew everything that was happening directly; or that they only heard the voicing of the Lord as thunder and so had to wait for the “official” copy to be brought to them.

I am writing “out loud” more than analyzing the text. But I expect that AAron thought to circumvent the issue of the law by a technicality; a “loophole” he saw in the law.
The altars were not to be made of hewn stone – but that which is uncut (made).
I imagine he thought that he could satisfy the not making part, by not hewing the animal from a solid, but rather allowing it to melt of itself into a mold someone else had made.

God clarifies the meaning of the command not to make images of him in Deute 4:12; the reason is first and foremost that they do not know what he looks like. Thus those who made the image in relief (the casting) would surely be guilty.

There are only two possibilities with respect to the calf itself – they either thought to make a God whom they controlled, or an image of the God who lead them out in hopes of gaining some power over him by the image.

I do think, because of the example Moses sets with the inquisition (the first) by slaying those closest to the idol in the middle of camp – that he would not have tolerated someone refusing to drink of the ground up calf. So, yes – it was, in my personal opinion, drink or die. Though you obviously don’t have to agree – it is just my thoughts at the moment I wrote the earlier post.

God bless you.

 

[cheeto1]

So, yes – it was, in my personal opinion, drink or die. Though you obviously don’t have to agree – it is just my thoughts at the moment I wrote the earlier post.

God bless you.

I do agree, after your death story…
So you are also pretty sure they did know he was fine,
and Aaron too, and they all just thought they could get away with it…
Like the story Jesus told of the servants behaving poorly when the master took
a while to get back. He said blessed is the one whom He finds busy, and it
sounds like poor Moses didn’t find anyone busy about God’s work…

God bless you too…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I do agree, after your death story…
So you are also pretty sure they did know he was fine,
and Aaron too, and they all just thought they could get away with it…

Like the story Jesus told of the servants behaving poorly when the master took
a while to get back. He said blessed is the one whom He finds busy, and it
sounds like poor Moses didn’t find anyone busy about God’s work…

God bless you too…

I would have to re-read, as my memory plays tricks occasionally. But I think Moses’ intercession saves Aaron, for I think somewhere God indicates he was about to destroy him. At the end of the 40 years, Aaron is told he is going to die before the people go into the promised land. Moses takes him up on the mountain and the priesthood is transferred to Aaron’s son – and Aaron doesn’t come back down.
I am not sure at what time Aaron learns of his punishment (the stripes of the servant).

I like your comparison with Jesus’ parable. For that one is tied directly to the leadership of the flock; In the passages we are reading, Aaron proved a coward.
Notice, Moses didn’t accuse him directly of the sin – but of leading the others into it.
He is responsible for their action because Moses gave him his own authority, along with one other man, to tend the camp while he was gone. Aaron (in my opinion) must have thought risking Moses’ wrath was less than risking the people’s wrath. Aaron had seen God’s glory on the mountain up close; He had been with Moses before Pharaoh in a life and death situation – so I would have to assume that he was a servant who knew who his master was.

My only speculation is with respect to when he realized he wasn’t off the punishment list. I’d encourage you to read around the sections I pointed out, and see if there are other details which strike your mind. I’m not being thorough, just enjoying the view and meditation – I am not sure when the punishment of Aaron became unavoidable. Perhaps if the readings progress in that direction for the rest of the week, the details of scripture will provide more insights.

For now, good night.
–Andrew.

 

[nannyma]

hello nannyma,

Do you think Moses did that because he felt sorry for the people since they
thought maybe he was dead or never coming back? He had led them this far,
they had experienced his miracles, but now that was a lifetime ago. Yes you
are right, there are major comparisons between Moses and Jesus. A man on
talk radio today pointed out that when Moses was born, innocent babies were
being killed. Then when Jesus was born, more innocent babies were being killed.
He compared these 2 events with all the abortions of today and said, “what will
happen now?”

Do you think that without the eucharist, people would have still wanted to make
an idol when Jesus was no longer with them?

Hello Cheeto, I think you misinterpret my comparison of Moses with Jesus. No-one can compare with Jesus,Our Lord. I hope this IS the word I want .Ideology. Moses caring for the people. Jesus caring for humanity. The Father’s love for all mankind. The people 's need to be lead. People made in the image and likness of God;creatures of God. Our first need is God. Moses was keeper of communication with Yahweh. Jesus is mediator with Our Heavenly Father. Moses became who he was because he was made so for God’s purpose. The calf was not Moses. The calf served their need to worship because of their creaturehood,our creaturehood. Jesus of course knew this and gave us Himself in the Eucharist to satisfy in truth our need of recourse to Him in worship. The key word here is recourse to Him.God Bless,nannyma

 

[MarcoPolo]

Do you think it’s possible that the Israelites just did this grave sin out of lonliness,
sadness, and a general feeling of being lost in the world since they thought they’d
probably never see Moses again? Why do you think Moses broke the tablets in
his anger? Do you think maybe he figured God would never forgive them anyway
so they were no longer needed? How do you think God decided who to strike out
of His book? What do you think about Huiou Theou’s comment that some who
weren’t struck immediately figured they’d been vindicated?

I think they lost trust because they could not continue to “see” Moses. This foreshadows us having faith in Christ. “Blessed is He who believes but does not see.” I imagine Moses broke them that showed that the people had “broken” God’s commandment #1. God strikes out those who remain impenitent. I don’t see Huiou’s comment you mean?