So let's talk about today's readings 8/14/09

  • Thread starter Thread starter cheeto1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

cheeto1

Guest
usccb.org/nab/081409.shtml

“I gave you a land that you had not tilled
and cities that you had not built, to dwell in;
you have eaten of vineyards and olive groves
which you did not plant"
–Thank you Lord, for sparing us the gory details of the book of Joshua, and
skipping ahead!
This part struck me, because I didn’t till my land, or build my house,
and all my food is provided from the grocery store, I didn’t plant any of it,
or raise the animals or kill them. God gave me all these things, am I in a
promised land???

“And slew powerful kings,
for his mercy endures forever”
– Mercy, for the killers of the powerful kings, but not for the kings…
Joshua is a book of no mercy, unless you are an Israelite…

Many people are divorced, and married to someone else they like better.
They think their children do not suffer, because they should just be glad their
parents are happy. Because of the suffering they have been through, they are
blind to the suffering of their children.
 
Can you imagine standing up and saying ‘this is what the Lord says’? :eek:
To be that sure you are speaking God’s word! WOW! How challenging it must be to be a prophet.
If we aren’t in a promised land, we at least have the blessings of a promised land.

Where can we see God’s mercy enduring in our lives? I can see it all around me, but I don’t often enough give Him thanks.

“Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so;
some, because they were made so by others;
some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven.”
Not everyone is called to marriage and neither is everyone called to the religious life. The part about some being incapable because of others to me means some of us have no example of marriage and so cannot take part in it ourselves. My parents have an annulment because marriage never existed between them. I have wondered if I would ever be called to the married life because I have no example of marriage - this passage seem to point that I may not be called. Then again I recognize that I don’t at this time know what marriage is and so may be able to learn. 🤷

The part about Moses demonstrates original sin - children with bad parents growing up to be bad parents to their children. Moses’ people had hard hearts because they did not understand what marriage is and so God granted them annulments.

There’s my :twocents: 😃
 
Can you imagine standing up and saying ‘this is what the Lord says’? :eek:
To be that sure you are speaking God’s word! WOW! How challenging it must be to be a prophet.
I don’t think it was hard for the prophets at all. They heard God speaking and they
knew it was God. He didn’t just speak to them one time and then they wondered
for the rest of their life if it was really Him or not. They had experience.

Yes, you are right: We do well always and everywhere to give Him thanks…
We Can’t give Him enough thanks!

Well I think you do know what marriage is. That’s my :twocents:

Think of these vows: love, honor, cherish…
No where does it say “live at the same address”
Some people are dangerous, and people can’t stay married to them because
they can’t live with them. But they are married, and so why can’t they live
somewhere else and keep loving the person? If I was trying to think up how to
love a person that I couldn’t live with, the LAST idea I would come up with is, “I
know, I’ll marry someone else!”
 
Not everyone is called to marriage and neither is everyone called to the religious life. The part about some being incapable because of others to me means some of us have no example of marriage and so cannot take part in it ourselves. My parents have an annulment because marriage never existed between them. … so God granted them annulments.

There’s my :twocents: 😃
This is a difficult thing; and not to side-track the thread – but just a passing comment:
You’re parents were likely married. That isn’t what annulments are about (Though I too understood it that way once) – annulments aren’t about declaring a “non-marriage”; If your parents had never married, then one might argue that it was not a marriage – but it would seem that they married against the law (I assume they had a wedding of some kind…though I could be wrong? )

The NAB is particularly good in this passages translation, if loose with the exact word (unlawful vs. a porno - marriage.).

The marriage existed, but is perverted – is the major idea here.
God does not join people who enter marriage in a perverse way – but only those who enter marriage in the way God intends; Where the church binds a marriage forbidden – it is not going to be joined together by God, for God agreed to give the Church the power of law over a marriage. That is to say, there is no sacrament of God in a perverse marriage – but there still is a marriage in many cases.

Moses gave divorce for the hardness of heart; and this is not a shallow topic. There is a real danger in the perverted marriage – and from what I recall; Moses says that if a man finds any un-cleanness in her whatsoever. etc. he may divorce her – which the pharisees took to mean any reason at all (eg: menstruation was unclean is a possible interpretation … etc.)
But, the hardness of heart means an impenitence, a non-changing situation – so Jesus is speaking of permanent fiflth when he explains the true situation.

It is interesting that the Pharisees use two words to describe the divorce according to the “book” (Moses…). They say “apo-lysw” (from-loose) eg: to lose/loose something from oneself and to one’s self, (divorce) – and the second word for “send her away” is actually directly translated apostacy. Away from the stable… The same word used of those who leave the Church, the bride of Christ. The hardness, Jesus attributes though – is verbally to the men standing there; Your hearts. It is almost as if Jesus were suggesting that the fault is in the men in the particular question which has arisen.

That Moses granted them annulments is not something I hear in discussions of Moses’ proclamation – but indeed it would seem that Jesus interprets it in that fashion. Most take it in the context of simple hatred and separation; regardless of whether or not they were joined by God; sometimes I hear people try and claim that the wedding of Cana is what raised the marriage to a sacrament; but these were Jews he spoke to; and not his own followers – so that argument is weak for the specific instance Jesus is debating with them. There has to be more.

One thing I see is that adultery is considered a sin against the man, the husband, in these ancient texts.
So I would also humbly offer that some of what is said here is because of that understanding. The man who sends her away forces her to sin against himself.
She brings his reputation down at the very least; and a man who can be her husband intensifies the condemnation of the man who sent her away – adultery.

There is also another thing I notice in reading the text, today; Jesus speaks of the beggining with a male and female; opposed to “man” and “woman”. I intend to spend my meditation time, today, looking at those words more closely – it is something I haven’t noticed before and they are odd to my understanding of normal Greek words; but the english transation makes these singular; a man and a woman.
The first recording of divorce was with respect to Abraham and Hagar; The child she brought forth mocked Sarah, the Princess of Abrahams youth. This was Abram’s/Abrahams’s second wife; and that is a word applied to her (wife).

God had already spoken to Sarai and told her that SHE would have a child. So, this begetting of the promise of God was against what God had told her. It was her unbelief, transmitted to her husband, that brought the sexual perversion of the second marriage into play against God’s decree. Identical to Adam and Eve with the forbidden fruit on the tree of life (a womanly image in many ways).

Abraham laughed, just as his wife did. And oddly enough, that is what they chose as the name of the Child – the sin which the parents had committed in unbelief (in spite of their faith).

Isaac means laughter. And his son Jacob is the one whom the idea of original sin would be most prophetically expounded by the examples of his life; An example which David appears to have noticed in his psalm 50/51 quite intensely.

These are all so intertwined with the idea of marriage, fatherhood, and motherhood, that Jesus’ statements have to be really looked at carefully to grasp the full spectrum of meaning. This isn’t just one or two levels of thought, but a theme running throughout the whole of the Old Testament.

I am sorry to hear your parents could not resolve the hardness which came between them; In my present difficulties (marriage) I have nothing of a bad example from my parents, or hers, and yet I am unable to live with her presently; A sickness has entered myself which I have not the power to change at this time – but I do have hope; Hope that regardless of what comes, that I will persevere in my Catholic oath and vocation; even if I have no sacrament.

This is an area that I long, in many ways, to understand more deeply – exactly what Jesus meant by all these various teachings of history which he brings to light. If I feel shame it is because I am unable to know exactly what is right, and so I am unable to do exactly what Jesus calls me to do. This is the Law which takes something Good, and uses it to kill.

Whether you marry or not; may you be blessed in your vocation.
Love and Prayers,
–Andrew.
 
Well I think you do know what marriage is. That’s my :twocents:

Think of these vows: love, honor, cherish…
No where does it say “live at the same address”
Some people are dangerous, and people can’t stay married to them because
they can’t live with them. But they are married, and so why can’t they live
somewhere else and keep loving the person? If I was trying to think up how to
love a person that I couldn’t live with, the LAST idea I would come up with is, “I
know, I’ll marry someone else!”
This is quite painful to me. The church says in canon law that a man is to live with his wife. Being more or less permanently separated because of necessity is a very difficult thing in terms of loving a spouse. I am supposed to ask the bishop (in some form or another, unspecified and unexplained by my pastor) for permission to remain in this way; although I have been so sick that it wasn’t even possible before –
I know that publicly our separation brings my wife’s name down in some people’s opinion – and I also know (especially from rude comments of People who make the same negative assumptions about me;) that the same is true in reverse. It is almost like they hate their divorced husband/wife of the past by hating me verbally.

I identify with what you say here, cheetoh, but I don’t wish it on you. Not one bit. It cuts a person up – divides him even against himself in doubts which must be mastered – not succumbed to like Abraham. If you will, I would appreciate your prayers – I will certainly pray for you.

–Andrew.
 
This is quite painful to me. The church says in canon law that a man is to live with his wife. If you will, I would appreciate your prayers – I will certainly pray for you.
Well, what about a man in the armed services, or a man away on business trips?
I am sure they are still married.

I was so hurt by my neighbor’s divorce (5 kids). I prayed for them all the time.
For 2 years, if I had any illness, I prayed for them hoping that my prayers were
more powerful because I was suffering. I’m not saying it was my prayers, but the
husband came down with “irrational” fears of hell, and his girlfriend told him to go
back to his wife, who accepted him with open arms, despite protests from friends
who told her that was disgusting. God works. He doesn’t force people to do
anything, but He gives opportunities.

And what would you like me to pray for? Maybe your illness? I hope it’s that
some how some way, you will get back together with your wife…

If you want to pray for me, I’d like my parents to get back together. They’ve
been apart for 32 years…
 
Well, what about a man in the armed services, or a man away on business trips?
I am sure they are still married.
So am I. We’re on the same page.
I don’t dare go on business trips. If I go out of state, the laws are so bad I would be in jail. I’m staying put; even here I have been set up for things I couldn’t stop in any legitimate way. I caved under pressure and may have even signed something, I can’t remember, cause I couldn’t take being yelled at anymore. I have anxiety, and can’t even separate out the difference between bad dreams and reality some days.

My point about canon law is that I don’t know – it just says:
Can. 1060 Marriage enjoys the favour of law. Consequently, in doubt the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven.
Article 2: Separation while the Bond remains
Can. 1151 Spouses have the obligation and the right to maintain their common conjugal life, unless a lawful reason excuses them.
Can. 1153 §1 A spouse who occasions grave danger of soul or body to the other or to the children, or otherwise makes the common life unduly difficult, provides the other spouse with a reason to leave, either by a decree of the local Ordinary or, if there is danger in delay, even on his or her own authority.
My depression was severe when I left – I literally slept 20-23 hours a day for months. I don’t want to talk about the feelings that raged at the time – but I needed to be away from her; I just don’t have any idea of what this means now; years later.

This isn’t talking about military trips, or business. It is talking about situations where the behavior of the spouse is what causes the separation. I stayed until I cracked.
I was so hurt by my neighbor’s divorce (5 kids). I prayed for them all the time.
For 2 years, if I had any illness, I prayed for them hoping that my prayers were
more powerful because I was suffering. I’m not saying it was my prayers, but the
husband came down with “irrational” fears of hell, and his girlfriend told him to go
back to his wife, who accepted him with open arms, despite protests from friends
who told her that was disgusting. God works. He doesn’t force people to do
anything, but He gives opportunities.

And what would you like me to pray for? Maybe your illness? I hope it’s that
some how some way, you will get back together with your wife…

If you want to pray for me, I’d like my parents to get back together. They’ve
been apart for 32 years…
Amen. I will.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top