So let's talk about today's readings 8/24/09

[cheeto1]

usccb.org/nab/today.shtml

“The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation,
on which were inscribed the twelve names
of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb”
–And what were the 12 names? not only are there 2 different lists, but what
about Matthais and Paul? Matthais was chosen by lots, but Paul called
himself “the least apostle”. Even with today’s saint, Bartholomew, his name
may be Nathaniel. Which one is written on the gate?

" Your friends make known, O Lord, the glorious splendor of your Kingdom."
**–**Well, we’re God’s friends. How do we make known the glorious splendor of
His Kindom?

“you will see heaven opened and the angels of God
ascending and descending on the Son of Man”
–I wonder what they looked like? How many were there? When did he see this?
Another thing Jesus said in the bible about nathaniel is that there is no guile
in him, and that he is a true Israelite. Doesn’t that make it seem like he should
get special treatment? Yet I can hardly bear to think of the way in which he was
martyred, and I was happy it wasn’t mentioned at mass…

So what struck you about today’s readings? :bible1::twocents:

 

[Nita]

REV 21:9-14
The angel spoke to me, saying,
“Come here.
I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
He took me in spirit to a great, high mountain
and showed me the holy city Jerusalem
coming down out of heaven from God.
It gleamed with the splendor of God.
Its radiance was like that of a precious stone,
like jasper, clear as crystal.

I’m a fan of the Book of Revelation – and today’s passage is one of the many that I love.
The “bride” brought to mind Sunday’s epistle reading where St, Paul writes of the Church as the bride of Christ:Eph 5:31-32 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

The “holy city” brought to mind Our Lord’s words in Matthew 5:14 where He speaks of the Church as a “city set on a hill” that cannot be hid – not here on earth from the eyes of those still living, and not in the heavens from the eyes of God and the saints. St. John says he sees the holy city “coming down out of heaven from God”. It was on Sunday that St. John had this vision, and it makes me think of how at Mass, all heaven is present around the altar – all the angels and saints come “down out of heaven” (Church Triumphant) and are present with us (Church Militant) as Mass is being offered and celebrated.

And the beauty of the Church. I love to remind myself that it was God who “authored” this vision for John to see - God who chose how to picture it for St. John. To me it is a revelation of how beautiful and precious the Church is to Him.

It had a massive, high wall,
with twelve gates where twelve angels were stationed
and on which names were inscribed,
the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
There were three gates facing east,
three north, three south, and three west.
The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation,
on which were inscribed the twelve names
of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.

It’s interesting to ponder why the tribes are the gates and the apostles are the foundation. Why not visa versa? I’m still enjoying thinking about that.

 

[cheeto1]

…at Mass, all heaven is present around the altar – all the angels and saints come “down out of heaven” (Church Triumphant) and are present with us (Church Militant) as Mass is being offered and celebrated.

It’s interesting to ponder why the tribes are the gates and the apostles are the foundation. Why not visa versa? I’m still enjoying thinking about that.

Wow…is that how you really feel at mass? That is awesome. I feel like heaven is
watching from farther away… How long have you felt like this at mass?

And what does that mean “church militant”? Are we parishoners to be called
“church militant”?

That is interesting about the gates and foundations, seems backwards doesn’t it?
How can what comes after, be foundation for what came before? Now I’m enjoying
thinking about it too… thanks!

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Wow…is that how you really feel at mass? That is awesome. I feel like heaven is
watching from farther away… How long have you felt like this at mass?

And what does that mean “church militant”? Are we parishoners to be called
“church militant”?

That is interesting about the gates and foundations, seems backwards doesn’t it?
How can what comes after, be foundation for what came before? Now I’m enjoying
thinking about it too… thanks!

It does in one sense seem backward – and in another it isn’t.
God told the Israelites on a few occasions that his mercy toward them was on account of their fathers. The number 12 is intimately connected with the favor of the fathers. That Isaac had children at all, & that his son Jacob had so many was because God blessed them; Isaac and Rebeka – If I read the account correctly – were the most faith filled of the bunch; Because they had a father whom had set an example, and selfishness had not yet taken root; they waited in patience for the children,too, since Rebeka was barren for many years.

The original temple was to be made as an image of heaven; The 70 elders (presbyters/priests – common but not formally-hierarchical ) saw the image of heaven with Moses and built the temple in accordance with that vision. The gates, which allowed the people in, were portioned out according to the position/orientation of the tribes in the march across the desert – as they stood around the tent of meeting before the sin of the calf. Recall the later flinty rock that was struck in the desert to bring forth water? – that idea as well as the later idea by the prophets that Abraham was the rock and Sarah the quarry from which Israel was dug show a continuity of God’s blessing. The idea that Peter is the “rock” is not a new idea; Abraham was the ultimate foundation with twelve (grand) sons (not sons) built on his faith. Jacob is never compared to – rock, nor Isaac – that I know of; But Jesus in surrounding himself with the twelve apostles (our shepherds) recalls the construction of the temple – we too, apparently, are viewed by God as belonging in some way to those twelve tribes; eg: by virtue of the promise.

So, the foundation stones are that which make the gates possible. Each gate was triple doored – 4 sides * 3 doors = 12 gates. Again there is a rich symbolism here that was meant to teach the nations for whom the temple was to be a light – and the candles inside were also to repeat the same theme. Each of these images Jesus takes over in the NT; although – the promises made by God were already fulfilled in the OT (in spite of what Calvinists seem to want to say about Romans…) but there is a meaning of the promises which transcends the original father, twelve persons, and then twelve tribes – which this temple was to be built around. From the very beginning; God intended to bless the whole world through that temple – and like the original one; everyone had to enter through the twelve holes made in the sides to allow the people in.

The idea of time to these people was cyclical – creation and re-creation of the world according to the week; and as we saw in earlier readings this month – also with the idea of the “eighth” day which is also the first day of the week. Pointing forward to a new creation of the whole world.

The images of the temple also include the water coming forth from the foundation rock under the temple in some places; Ezekiel? (not sure) – ultimately, Jesus is a “new” Abraham – and a new temple (both); and from him is hewn Peter as a cornerstone in likeness of himself, just as Jesus is in likeness (though he is greater) than Abraham.

I guess what I am sort of dancing around here – is the idea that the 12 gates would be exclusive; or the cornerstone of a temple; each of these is a re-creation according to God’s plan. I don’t think it proper to say – if X is the cornerstone (Abraham, Jesus, Peter) – then it can only be one of them. (For if Jesus is limited to the cornerstone, then whom is the God within?) Also, I like to remember that the temple mount itself was purchased from a wheat grinder/thresher – the floor of the Holy Place being built upon the foundation of the sacrifices that Israel had – Hearkening all the way back to Cain and Abel from whence grain and lambs originated in sacrifice. The temple itself is the stone of Grace – the gift of God and the thanksgiving of his people for what God has given us; a two way reciprocal foundation – for the temple floor was purchased out of the fruits which God gave Israel.

Quite a bit to think about, hmmm…

Peace.
–Andrew.

 

[Nita]

Wow…is that how you really feel at mass? That is awesome. I feel like heaven is
watching from farther away… How long have you felt like this at mass?

And what does that mean “church militant”? Are we parishoners to be called
“church militant”?

I always know and believe it, altho I don’t always “feel” it. That is, I don’t often feel it in the sense of some sort of spiritual experience. I’m not sure just when I learned it - but it’s been a long time.

At Mass, Jesus is made present and becomes the Lamb, offering Himself to God on our behalf through the priest (Rev 5:1-…). Where Jesus is, all heaven is. Heaven, God, the angels and saints are not subject to boundaries. The Mass is our worship united to heaven’s worship. Next time you’re at Mass and pray “Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might…” see the sanctuary filled with angels singing those same praises with you. (Just as Isaiah saw, Isaiah 6:2 - and St. John, Rev 4:8). Usually in the Preface just before the Holy, holy, the priest reminds us that we are joining with “all the angels and saints as we pray”. If you haven’t ever done it, go through the book of Revelation and underline - or type out on a word document - all the passages that are visions of heaven and the activities there. What is described there is going on continuously, because there is always a Mass and Consecration taking place somewhere here on earth. It is continuous from the perspective of heaven.

The other parts of Revelation are the activities on earth – our human history. All of our human history is overseen, bound to, interwoven with God’s activity. I recall a priest once saying something similar to “The history of the world is controlled by what takes place on the altar.” Also, that missionaries learned that demon activity in pagan countries decreased as the Masses offered increased.

The people of God (those who have accepted Him and are/are being saved) are the members of God’s kingdom – the Church. The members living on earth must still “battle” to conquer sin/evil in their lives (Church Militant). Other members of the kingdom are in purgatory (Church Suffering). And others are in heaven (Church Triumphant).

Time to get ready to go to Mass.

 

[Nita]

Just a couple minutes before I have to leave. Here’s a quote from the CCC:
#1138 “Recapitulated in Christ,” these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of His plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the 144,000), especially the martyrs “slain for the word of God”, and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb, and finally “a great multitude which no one could number, from every naion, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues.”

#1139 it is in this eternal liturgy that the Spirit and the Church enable us to participate whenever we celebrate the mystery of salvation in the sacraments.

Read also #1136 and 1137 if you have the CCC. If you don’t, let me know and I’ll give you a link to it after I get back from Mass and Holy Hour.

Have a blessed day,
Nita

 

[cheeto1]

It does in one sense seem backward – and in another it isn’t.
God told the Israelites on a few occasions that his mercy toward them was on account of their fathers. The number 12 is intimately connected with the favor of the fathers. That Isaac had children at all, & that his son Jacob had so many was because God blessed them; Isaac and Rebeka – If I read the account correctly – were the most faith filled of the bunch; Because they had a father whom had set an example, and selfishness had not yet taken root; they waited in patience for the children,too, since Rebeka was barren for many years.

The original temple was to be made as an image of heaven; The 70 elders (presbyters/priests – common but not formally-hierarchical ) saw the image of heaven with Moses and built the temple in accordance with that vision. The gates, which allowed the people in, were portioned out according to the position/orientation of the tribes in the march across the desert – as they stood around the tent of meeting before the sin of the calf. Recall the later flinty rock that was struck in the desert to bring forth water? – that idea as well as the later idea by the prophets that Abraham was the rock and Sarah the quarry from which Israel was dug show a continuity of God’s blessing. The idea that Peter is the “rock” is not a new idea; Abraham was the ultimate foundation with twelve (grand) sons (not sons) built on his faith. Jacob is never compared to – rock, nor Isaac – that I know of; But Jesus in surrounding himself with the twelve apostles (our shepherds) recalls the construction of the temple – we too, apparently, are viewed by God as belonging in some way to those twelve tribes; eg: by virtue of the promise.

So, the foundation stones are that which make the gates possible. Each gate was triple doored – 4 sides * 3 doors = 12 gates. Again there is a rich symbolism here that was meant to teach the nations for whom the temple was to be a light – and the candles inside were also to repeat the same theme. Each of these images Jesus takes over in the NT; although – the promises made by God were already fulfilled in the OT (in spite of what Calvinists seem to want to say about Romans…) but there is a meaning of the promises which transcends the original father, twelve persons, and then twelve tribes – which this temple was to be built around. From the very beginning; God intended to bless the whole world through that temple – and like the original one; everyone had to enter through the twelve holes made in the sides to allow the people in.

The idea of time to these people was cyclical – creation and re-creation of the world according to the week; and as we saw in earlier readings this month – also with the idea of the “eighth” day which is also the first day of the week. Pointing forward to a new creation of the whole world.

The images of the temple also include the water coming forth from the foundation rock under the temple in some places; Ezekiel? (not sure) – ultimately, Jesus is a “new” Abraham – and a new temple (both); and from him is hewn Peter as a cornerstone in likeness of himself, just as Jesus is in likeness (though he is greater) than Abraham.

I guess what I am sort of dancing around here – is the idea that the 12 gates would be exclusive; or the cornerstone of a temple; each of these is a re-creation according to God’s plan. I don’t think it proper to say – if X is the cornerstone (Abraham, Jesus, Peter) – then it can only be one of them. (For if Jesus is limited to the cornerstone, then whom is the God within?) Also, I like to remember that the temple mount itself was purchased from a wheat grinder/thresher – the floor of the Holy Place being built upon the foundation of the sacrifices that Israel had – Hearkening all the way back to Cain and Abel from whence grain and lambs originated in sacrifice. The temple itself is the stone of Grace – the gift of God and the thanksgiving of his people for what God has given us; a two way reciprocal foundation – for the temple floor was purchased out of the fruits which God gave Israel.

Quite a bit to think about, hmmm…

Peace.
–Andrew.

So are you saying that the reason the apostles are the foundation and the tribes
are the gates is because both can have more than one representation?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

So are you saying that the reason the apostles are the foundation and the tribes
are the gates is because both can have more than one representation?

Sigh. I guess I was clear as mud.

I was thinking more along the lines of re-creation. The temple in Jesus’ day was being rebuilt by king Herod. The temple had been destroyed and re-built several times; the Herodian temple being even larger than the glory of Solomon’s building.

When John the apostle wrote, eg: long after 70AD – the temple had been destroyed by the Romans already. The book of revelation is a reflection of this cycle of anti-kings, (horns), and the children of God in his temple. Those who tore down, and those who re-built.

So, the first point I was vaguely making is that even in the real temple – the foundation stones changed with time. The temple in it’s final form is a re-creation of the temple by God rather than by human hands alone. The foundation stones, eg: the cut ones, can be replaced – although the mountain, or sub-foundation Rock pre-existed the temple and is a figure of the Mesiah from whom comes forth living water.

It is true, that individuals may be identified with multiple parts of the image.
The “names” that you question, if you look in the book of revelation (singular) – there is a passage which describes the naming:
Rev 2:17
… I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no one knows except him whom receives it.

Jesus named Simon “Kepha” Rock. James and John he called boarnarges (sons of thunder). etc. There is to be a new name written on a gemstone of some kind.
This recalls the ephod worn by Aaron as High Priest. The high priest wore an item which had twelve stones on it, and these twelve stones had the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them.

Once the temple was destroyed, the access of people to God is cut off – so to speak – from a human attainable perspective. The twelve tribes represent the whole of the promise to Abraham in a transcendant way – so the figure of the Apostles being names upon the stones associated with the doorways, means that they have become the mode of access to the temple. They are the re-creation of a new doorway, or a new porch upon which those who enter must walk.

They do not, however, entirely replace the gates themselves – which is an interesting point – rather, they now support the gates which were before making entry once again possible.

There are several ideas which I haven’t studied or explored and don’t want to carve their certainty in stone… but take these as loose associations some of which may bear out.

The purpose of altars in one sense is to support the victim (and make it holy) – an altar is then a foundation of sorts.

Priests must have something to offer, and we are a priestly people. The priests of Aaron’s line (eg: the great grandchildren) were divided up by Solomon into 24 “courses” – and St. John speaks about “courses” of stone, and the word may be similar (haven’t studied it to know for sure). Surely more than 12 foundation stones are required to build the temple, but only 12 would be needed for the gates – which means those 12 are closely identified With the gates, and the meaning of them.

I suppose that is as far as I can go right now. I missed mass this morning – had to shower and clean up and didn’t make it in time – so I am off to mass this evening and it is a long drive to the next city… Guess I’ll find out what the Polish homilies are like at St. Stanaslaus.

Until later,
–Andrew.