So let's talk about today's readings 9/4/09

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cheeto1

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September 4, 2009

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Reading 1
Col 1:15-20

Brothers and sisters:
Christ Jesus is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
all things were created through him and for him.
He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.
He is the head of the Body, the Church.
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell,
and through him to reconcile all things for him,
making peace by the Blood of his cross
through him, whether those on earth or those in heaven.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 100:1b-2, 3, 4, 5

R. (2b) Come with joy into the presence of the Lord.
Sing joyfully to the LORD, all you lands;
serve the LORD with gladness;
come before him with joyful song.
R. Come with joy into the presence of the Lord.
Know that the LORD is God;
he made us, his we are;
his people, the flock he tends.
R. Come with joy into the presence of the Lord.
Enter his gates with thanksgiving,
his courts with praise;
Give thanks to him; bless his name.
R. Come with joy into the presence of the Lord.
For he is good,
the LORD, whose kindness endures forever,
and his faithfulness, to all generations.
R. Come with joy into the presence of the Lord.
Gospel
Lk 5:33-39

The scribes and Pharisees said to Jesus,
“The disciples of John the Baptist fast often and offer prayers,
and the disciples of the Pharisees do the same;
but yours eat and drink.”
Jesus answered them, “Can you make the wedding guests fast
while the bridegroom is with them?
But the days will come, and when the bridegroom is taken away from them,
then they will fast in those days.”
And he also told them a parable.
“No one tears a piece from a new cloak to patch an old one.
Otherwise, he will tear the new
and the piece from it will not match the old cloak.
Likewise, no one pours new wine into old wineskins.
Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins,
and it will be spilled, and the skins will be ruined.
Rather, new wine must be poured into fresh wineskins.
And no one who has been drinking old wine desires new,
for he says, ‘The old is good.’”
 
“whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;
all things were created through him and for him”
–What are all these things? Today our priest said the Colossians were worshipping
angels and thought they were “higher” than Jesus in the universe. Paul was
setting them straight here. Are these 3 things angels?

“making peace by the Blood of his cross”
– Can anyone make peace with a murderer by letting him kill you? If that’s true,
then why don’t we just not have any wars, let everyone kill us, and then we’ll have
peace. I did not hear of Pilate or Herod converting, or any of the high priests who
handed him over. One centurian might have said, “clearly, this was the Son of
God!” but I think that was because of the earthquakes.

"Come with joy into the presence of the Lord"
Our church could use some louder and more joyful joy. How about yours?

“then they will fast in those days”
– and did they fast? If so how?
 
“No one tears a piece from a new cloak to patch an old one”
“Likewise, no one pours new wine into old wineskins”

– Then how can an old cloak be repaired? What then can be poured into old
wineskins? I’m sure old wine is already in a wineskin. He did seem concerned
that the old wineskins would be ruined…why would he care about that if they
were useless anyway?
 
cheeto1 said:
“No one tears a piece from a new cloak to patch an old one”
“Likewise, no one pours new wine into old wineskins”

– Then how can an old cloak be repaired? What then can be poured into old
wineskins? I’m sure old wine is already in a wineskin. He did seem concerned
that the old wineskins would be ruined…why would he care about that if they
were useless anyway?
Click to expand...
An old cloak is repaired by material taken from another old cloak. A new cloak would be repaired by using fresh cloth. It is the difference in shrinkage and swelling which causes bursting.

I think the purpose of the parable is that the people are the wine-skins and the teaching is the patch or new wine. In this application, Jesus appears to be comparing the new and the old testaments – his disciples do not fit into the old pattern, and the old can’t be repaired to be with the new. Each is good in its own right, as it was intended, but not pushed beyond its ability.
 
Huiou_Theou said:
A particular thought bothering you?

🙂
Click to expand...
Yep. It seems Jesus is saying that either the Old Testament or it’s old Jewish
followers are now obsolete, and good for nothing. But, He says that the
“new teaching” if poured into the old wineskin will ruin it. But isn’t that what He
did? He brought His new cloak specifically to the Old Testament people.
And, for some reason He is concerned about the old winskins being ruined.
Why should He care if they are ruined when He is saying they are obsolete and
now useless? Why shouldn’t He show a lack of concern for this instead, since
He says a man must be born again of water and the Spirit in order to receive
this new teaching?
 
OK.
I am not going to dictate a “solution” all nice a neat here, but what I will do is examine a few thoughts which are anchors from which to tie various answers to.

The first thought is why would anyone tear a new cloak in order to repair an old one? Is it not clear that the new one will be ruined when doing so – and then there will be two damaged cloaks?

The second thought is that aged wine has a finer quality often than new wine. Age adds smoothness and character to properly made wine. To mix new wine with old is to distort the taste of both.

A third thought is that the Old Covenant did serve a useful purpose in spite of what Paul makes of its weaknesses; Circumcision had a value – the words in Greek for circumcision are the same words as are used to “prune a bush”; that is remove branches which reduce the quality of the fruit produced. Circumcision, then, was intended to have an effect upon those it was practiced. Isaac and Jacob benefited from this pruning – but not all did.

It is a mistake to think that God was not pleased with anything of the old Covenant - for he says “I AM” the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Two of the names are the ones given after God changed them – but the third is NOT. Jacob entered into polygamy, and through his second wife idols were brought into Israel.

But, the point is, that in spite of the weeds which Rachel planted in God’s crop – the pruning and circumcision did by and large have an effect. In the time of Elijah, God tells him that hidden away were hundreds who had not bent the knee to Baal.

It is to all of these, and those like John the Baptist, that I think the “old wine being better” could apply. We, ourselves, are likened to the wild olive branch which is grafted in for the original ones bore no fruit. But in order of preference and flavor – the original branches which did produce must be of great pleasure to the gardener! indeed!

I think the real crux of the parable comes when one tries to mix the old and the new. They are incompatible in certain ways which will do more damage than good.
As St. Paul speaks of the Jews, they are not to be cut off forever – but their inclusion will mean life from the dead. There is, so to speak, a way which both the old and the new may be preserved – but only through patience and proper aging of the respective substances so that they may blend.

God has never totally abandoned the Jewish roots from whence the new covenant was cultivated. He has merely pruned it all the way back to a stump for a time.

Does that help, or were you thinking along a different line of analogy?

–Andrew.
 
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