W
Waiting
Guest
Itullian, I’m doubting your sincerity. I think you’re just trying to confuse people and cause doubts in their faith. I can’t continue communicating with you.
- Status
P
Poof
Guest
Fatima Miracle of the Sun
- The time and place of this event was predicted three months in advance.
- The miracle both began and ended abruptly.
3.“The sun danced around, sending off great shafts of colored light which tinted objects on the ground. It plummeted towards the earth after several minutes, assuming such a gigantic nearness that the tens of thousands of witnesses thought it was the end of the world.” The sun stopped just as it was about to hit the earth and returned to it’s position prior to the miracle. - The witnesses could look at the sun without harm.“Doctor Garrett, a professor from the University of Coimbra…feared some impairment to his retina, covered his eyes and turned to the opposite direction, opened his eyes again…and continued to see the miracle”
- The ground, together with the clothes of the ground, which had been drenched by constant hours of rain, suddenly dried up. After the miracle ended, a strong wind hit the Cova, yet the trees remained unaffacted…after a few minutes, everything was dry.
- The miracle was witnessed by people in and out of the crowd over a radius of 20 miles.
- The varied types of witnesses ranging from doctors, professors, journalists…"persons of every category and class as including both skeptics and believers alike.
- The huge amount of people present at the Cova ranging from 40,000 to 100,000 individuals.
Other quotes
*“Among the crowd were scientists and “unbelievers” who viewed the phenomenon not only with objectivity, but with particular care to protect themselves from the possibility of collective suggestion”.
"Baron of Alvaiazere, who carefully took all precautions outlined by Gustave le Bon in his ‘Psychology of the Crowd’. The Baron had not expected a miracle and wanted to be sure that he would not be the victim of suggestion. He died in 1955, and in a deposition to the Canonical Committee he stated: “…An indescribable impression overtook me I only know that I cried out: ‘I believe! I believe! I believe!’ And tears ran from my eyes. I was amazed, in ecstasy before the demonstration of divine power”.
"Pio Sciatizzi, S.J., scientist who published a critique of the Miracle in Rome, says: “Of the historic reality of this event there can be no doubt whatsover. That it was outside and aganist known laws can be proved by certain simple scientific considerations…Given the indubitable reference to God, and the general context of the event, it seems that we must attribute to Him alone the most obvious and colossal miracle of history…”*
Effect on Portugal
The powerful Portuguese goverment, which had ruled for 7 years with an incredible anti-clerical mood had failed. It strongly espoused atheism, vowing that it would wipe religion within two generations. Lisbon, was the atheist capital of the world and a few years after the miracle of the sun, it was no longer. The miracle converted an enormous amount of atheists, those at the crowd who witnessed it and others who were swayed by evidence and testimony. In fact, Antonio Maria da Silva himself, who was the nominal founder of the goverment party, was one of the notable figures that converted. O Seculo, one of the two most prominent newspapers of Portugal during that time (and one known for being “predominantly anti-religious”, attested to the event). And as you can imagine, their testimony caused a lot of controversy, especially since they had been ridiculing the children and the “prophesied miracle” prior to its happening.
SOURCES: Meet the Witnesses by John M. Haffert
I
itullian
Guest
i thought maybe someone here that got a sign or something could help me, too.
that’s all
i’m watching EWTN online right now as i don’t have tv…
that’s all
i’m watching EWTN online right now as i don’t have tv…
E
Edmundus1581
Guest
I’ve seen that claim on skeptical web-sites, eg “Many saw nothing”, without the slightest back up. I’ve read an excellent book on Fatima, and I don’t have it handy, but I do recall it mentioning that a small number saw nothing (I may be wrong there, however). My opinion of this is that it is, if true, actually a strong evidence for the supernatural events at the Cova, because if some saw nothing then it could not have been a natural phenomona such as the “sun dog” which is sometimes claimed.
Those few who saw nothing (if true!) may have been people specially chosen by God to suffer some deprivation (of not seeing the miracle) so that others may believe.
P
Poof
Guest
Same here.
I have this source on Fatima which I posted a while back and it mentioned 2-3 people who publicly denounced the miracle. However the source also proceeded to say how these claims were most probably false and the possible motives these people had for saying such things. (However, the source is long and when I last tried to locate the area in which this information was found, I couldn’t find it.)
I also have a popular book on Fatima, Meet the Witnesses by John Haffert, which I mentioned in my earlier post. Haffert, personally interviewed about 200 witnesses to the Fatima Miracle. One of the questions which he posed all of these witnesses was “Do you know of anyone in the crowd who did not see the miracle?” and no one replied with a yes. Apparently, the only source on the net, excluding skeptic sites (which by the way, have to back-ups to their claims), was the source I mentioned above and it only mentioned 2-3 people, which is less than a handful. Moreover, this only source had information on these individuals that put their claims in doubt citing certain reasons that I can’t remember and possible motives. I’m skimming through my old posts at the moment so I could share the source with you.
P
Poof
Guest
Typo correction
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima2/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima3/
crc-internet.org/JP1/Fatima4.htm
Here’s the source
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima2/
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima3/
crc-internet.org/JP1/Fatima4.htm
D
dailey
Guest
No, you don’t “need” to see, its merely a “want”.so true, bless them and you.
i need to see
J
JDaniel
Guest
Itullian:
But He does that each and every time we come to Him in Faith. Each and every time we feel His presence and Love as it courses through our veins and nervous systems. Those who simply recognize this, know this. If you’ve been baptized, you will too.
Also remember that we were told that to profess our faith and love for Christ and God without embarrassment will open His doors to us. I will not be embarrassed.
God bless,
jd
L
LJH_80
Guest
Regarding the “many saw nothing” I think that has to be true, since many people were not at Fatima.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand, this event was only witnessed by ~70,000 people at Fatima, leaving 3,000,000,000 - 70,000= ~2,999,930,000 people who saw nothing. I would qualify that as “many.”
This brings me to my confusion about the Fatima miracle.
It is frequently described as “the sun” that moved around, dancing and drawing close to Earth.
But if it actually were THE SUN, then everyone on that half of the globe should have seen the sun moving, right? But they didn’t.
This means that:
1.) The sun moved, but everyone else was given a false impression of it staying where it was.
or
2.) What the people saw moving was not the sun.
or
3.) If there is a 3rd option, let me know, but either the sun moved or it didn’t, and since some people saw it move and others didn’t, one group must have been mistaken.
Given the physics that would have had to change for it to have been the sun, and that only that one location experienced abnormal temperature spikes to dry everything out, it would seem like the group saw something that wasn’t there, or what was there was not the sun.
Are there any flaws in that logic that people can see?
D
damscott
Guest
As is often the case, things are not so simple. Einstein proved of physics that time, velocity, motion, etc., are not absolute, but merely relative. Thus, Einstein’s laws are more complicated than Newton’s laws; and likewise, this miracle phenomenon is more complicated than first meets the eye. It is “physically” possible for some observers to perceive a body to be in motion while others perceive the same body (the sun) to be at rest. It depends on frames of reference and relative motions. Furthermore, It’s also “mentally” possible for some observers to perceive a body to be in motion while others perceive the same body to be at rest.
It depends on frames of reference again; but in this case, the reference frameworks are psychological. Hallucination, illusion, dillusion, etc. The real subjective question is, "what is objective reality? (if it even exists)
It seems, according to Kant, we can’t know objective reality with absolute certainty. So, beyond this point, all further argumentation toward truth about it seems fruitless.
Here’s another conundrum: Cantor proved that there exist, without end, higher orders of infinity than the infinite set of whole numbers. Which orders of infinity do God’s powers entail?
I submit that we humbly swallow our egos and simply trust God to inspire and reveal
the truth to us; i.e., that which we need to know.
God love us, we are searching…
It depends on frames of reference again; but in this case, the reference frameworks are psychological. Hallucination, illusion, dillusion, etc. The real subjective question is, "what is objective reality? (if it even exists)
It seems, according to Kant, we can’t know objective reality with absolute certainty. So, beyond this point, all further argumentation toward truth about it seems fruitless.
Here’s another conundrum: Cantor proved that there exist, without end, higher orders of infinity than the infinite set of whole numbers. Which orders of infinity do God’s powers entail?
I submit that we humbly swallow our egos and simply trust God to inspire and reveal
the truth to us; i.e., that which we need to know.
God love us, we are searching…
L
LJH_80
Guest
I’m not sure you actually know what you’re talking about with relativity, but I get the idea you’re trying to convey.
Essentially “stop thinking and believe.”
Essentially “stop thinking and believe.”
E
Edmundus1581
Guest
Thankyou! An excellent summary and source.
I have found with Fatima that much of the discussion, especially in the internet era, revolves around what can be presented in a web page. Thus the skeptics can put up a theory such as “collective hallucination”, or “sun dog” which (purportedly) answers some of the miraculous details, but not all of them. However, if one reads a whole book one finds many extra details which can’t be accounted for by the alternative theories.
P
Poof
Guest
That’s precisely the point. Three months prior to the miracle, the Virgin Mary invited everyone to go to the Cova on the prophesied day, promising a miracle so that “all may believe”. People came, some traveling for several miles, taking trains, cars, etc…and on that day, a miracle happened, yet, astronomical and meteorological observatories were unable to record it. Tbis proves that the miracle was a local and exclusive one. **It was available to everyone over a radius of 20 miles from the Cova. **God, with his power, was able to twist the laws of the universe, making such a miracle possible without any negative effects (on the earth) whatsoever.
I’m sorry, would you mind rephrasing this? The sun moved but everyone was fooled into thinking that it actually stayed in one place? Sorry.
Yet witnesses clearly state it
- came from and went back to the location of the sun.
- It looked exactly like the sun.
- It was the only sun like object in the sky afterwards.
Would you mind rephrasing this as well? Are you saying that the crowd present at the Cova did not see the sun and that the miraculous drying of the muddy ground and clothes after the event was not the result of the sun or something else?
“The sun danced around, sending off great shafts of colored light which tinted objects on the ground. It plummeted towards the earth after several minutes, assuming such a gigantic nearness that the tens of thousands of witnesses thought it was the end of the world.” The sun stopped just as it was about to hit the earth and returned to the sky.
T
TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Without them, the bible could just be a collection of stories about the superstitious fortune tellers who got lucky.
T
TheTrueCentrist
Guest
You realize that the preponderance of the evidence indicates that the Exodus is not actually a historical account, right? No evidence has been found that would suggest a large migration, and evidence has been found that suggests an alternative origin of the Israelites.
E
Edmundus1581
Guest
Yes, it could be.
P
Poof
Guest
As I said, Fatima could not have been the result of mass hypnosis, collective suggestion or the result of sun staring because…
B) Albano Barros witnessed it as he was tending his sheep.
C) Father Joaquim witnessed it when he was still a school boy. They were having classes until they heard the “surprised shouts” of a crowd of people outside their school. Together with the class, Joaquin ran out to see what was happening and saw the miracle.
D) Mario Godinho was at the Cova but he didn’t believe anything would happen. His family wanted him to take them and so he did. He didn’t bother leaving his car as he believed nothing would happen. He was proved wrong.
- “It was witnessed over a large area by persons not in the crowd” Citing a few examples…
B) Albano Barros witnessed it as he was tending his sheep.
C) Father Joaquim witnessed it when he was still a school boy. They were having classes until they heard the “surprised shouts” of a crowd of people outside their school. Together with the class, Joaquin ran out to see what was happening and saw the miracle.
D) Mario Godinho was at the Cova but he didn’t believe anything would happen. His family wanted him to take them and so he did. He didn’t bother leaving his car as he believed nothing would happen. He was proved wrong.
- Witnesses say that they could look upon the sun “without harm to the eyes.”
- “Among the crowd were scientists and “unbelievers” who viewed the phenomenon not only with objectivity, but with particular care to protect themselves from the possibility of collective suggestion”.
- There were no complaints of eye pains after the event.
- The ground together with the people’s clothes, which were drenched by constant hours of rain, suddenly dried up (It rained so hard that there was a good three inches of water on the ground). I’m guessing this drying up is the result of sun-staring as well?
- According to the witnesses “the sun” that they saw
A) looked exactly like the sun.
B) came from and went back to the location of the sun.
C) was the only sun-like object in the sky.
E
Edmundus1581
Guest
But, are you interested in the preponderance of evidence on the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima? (as summarised in this thread, and available in books).
Or, the preponderance of evidence for the resurrection?
I could go on…
P
Poof
Guest
I finally found the section. However, first off, I’d like to apologize for my bad memory, it wasn’t 2-3 but 7, and only one of these seven publicly denounced the miracle. And guess what? He actually saw it, he describes it even, but attests the whole thing to collective psychology. If you read the entire section, it also provide explanations as to why the other five cannot be qualified as actual “witnesses who did not see anything” either because Gerard de Sede, author of book, Fatima: Investigation into a Fraud, got his information wrong or another factor rendered them incapable of doing so. But wait Poof, you said 7 witnesses but so far you have only introduced 6. Well, the last one is the only known actual witness who did not see anything and her name is Izabel Brandao de Melo…and I quote:
*"On October 31, 1917, in a letter to a Swiss priest, Father Gelase, after having described the prodigy she continued:
«This is what was said by those around me, and what thousands of people affirm that they saw. As for myself, I saw nothing! I could indeed look at the sun and I was terribly agitated to hear everybody shouting that there were extraordinary signs in the sky. I believe that I was not found worthy by Our Lord to see these phenomena, but in my soul I had no need to see them to believe in the apparition of the Holy Virgin to the children."*
I will let the texts speak for itself. Also, the link I posted below gives solid information on the miracle, so anyone interested should take a look. Among other things, it also debunks natural explanations for Fatima.
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/ (Section 10: The Dance of the Sun. Scroll to the very bottom until you reach a section titled “DID EVERYBODY SEE IT?”)
E
Edmundus1581
Guest
Thankyou, Sir Poof! It’s so helpful to have someone follow up on such a question!
Beautiful and powerful! This one witness seems to have been specially chosen by God to credit all the other witnesses! It was not a collective hallucination, it was not a natural phenomenon!
Like I said, the one page rebuttals just cannot account for all the facts, which are there to diligent enquirers.
- Status