So sad to see

[mcrow]

I happened to be in Minneapolis this evening overnight. I’ve been making an effort to go to mass more often recently. I normally only go to my home church but as I’ll be away from home in Minneapolis on Mondays I decided it’s a perfect time to get in another mass.

So, I stopped in at a church tonight, close to where I’ll be staying over night.

I walked in about 10 minutes before Mass and to my dismay, there was only 1 other person in the Church. Eventually, another half dozen or so people wandered in to make the total about 8-9.

I just found it so sad to see so few people in such a beautiful church. I’m just used to ours being filled to near capacity every week. This really brought home the reason why the Minneapolis Archdiocese is merging several perishes here.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I happened to be in Minneapolis this evening overnight. I’ve been making an effort to go to mass more often recently. I normally only go to my home church but as I’ll be away from home in Minneapolis on Mondays I decided it’s a perfect time to get in another mass.

So, I stopped in at a church tonight, close to where I’ll be staying over night.

I walked in about 10 minutes before Mass and to my dismay, there was only 1 other person in the Church. Eventually, another half dozen or so people wandered in to make the total about 8-9.

I just found it so sad to see so few people in such a beautiful church. I’m just used to ours being filled to near capacity every week. This really brought home the reason why the Minneapolis Archdiocese is merging several perishes here.

Sometimes weekday attendance isn’t reflective of weekend attendance. My RC parish is relatively small, but we have over half-full a rather good sized church over 3 Masses on a weekend (1 Sat. eve, 2 Sun. morning). But on weekdays its normally maybe 10 people, usually older people.

 

[Phemie]

Sometimes weekday attendance isn’t reflective of weekend attendance. My RC parish is relatively small, but we have over half-full a rather good sized church over 3 Masses on a weekend (1 Sat. eve, 2 Sun. morning). But on weekdays its normally maybe 10 people, usually older people.

You’re right about daily Mass. Even back in the 60s when I was in elementary school and attended daily Mass during Lent and Advent, the attendance wasn’t very much more than a handful.

Mass was at 8 a.m., a time when the men had already gone to work in the family car and the women were home trying to get the kids ready for school. They had no time to walk to Mass unless they lived only a few minutes’ walk from the church or had no children to look after. You’d see more, but not that many more, when the Mass was in the evening. Sundays saw 2 packed Masses.

Today that parish has only one weekday Mass and our Sunday Mass is at 7 p.m. on Saturday. It shares a priest with 3 other parishes. Let’s just say you don’t have to fight for a place to sit at Sunday Mass.

 

[mcrow]

Hopefully, you’re right but talking with someone I work with many of the inner city Catholic Churches here are lucky to get 20 people for a weekend mass.

I guess part of the problem is that there’s practically a Catholic Church on every corner in Minneapolis. That and when most of these churches were opened there was a huge Irish/Italian/Polish community in Minneapolis. Many of them have moved to the suburbs now.

Not to mention Minneapolis is very socially liberal, so I think there are many fewer religious minded people than there used to be.

 

[laszlo]

Not to mention Minneapolis is very socially liberal, so I think there are many fewer religious minded people than there used to be.

Matthew 11:5 The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead rise again, **the poor have the gospel preached to them.
**

It seems to be a deception that being socially leiberal is against the Catholic Faith.

Protestants usually believe, that the wealth is God’s reward for ones merits. Catholics believe that

Matthew 19:24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Cat]

I’ve visited a lot of states since converting to Catholicism, and found, for the most part, reverent and liturgically-correct OF Masses.

But the one exception was a Mass that I attended in Minneapolis. I consider myself quite tolerant of minor abuses, but even I was shocked and upset by the Mass I attended. The Mass opened with liturgical dancers, which I have been taught is not allowed in the United States in Catholic churches. The priest carried a cup of coffee (it wasn’t hot water, it was coffee) up to the podium and sipped from it several times during the Mass. I believe he also placed it on the altar during the consecration. There were lots of other smaller things that were definitely out of order.

It occurred to me that since Minnesota is so socially and politically liberal (they actually hoisted comedian Al Franken into the U.S. Congress through a bald-faced con game), perhaps this has slopped over into the Catholic churches.

And even though I believe totally in modern, even rock music in the Mass as a way to attract and retain modern people, I also believe that the liturgy needs to be kept intact in the Masses in the U.S., or those same modern people,along with the more traditional people, will fall away from the faith, or flee the deficient Mass.

I beg forgiveness if I am basing my opinion of Mass in Minnesota churches on just one very bad experience. I am aware that the parish I attended may be the exception and many Catholic parishes have correct, reverent OF Masses up in Minnesota.

 

[mcrow]

I’ve visited a lot of states since converting to Catholicism, and found, for the most part, reverent and liturgically-correct OF Masses.

But the one exception was a Mass that I attended in Minneapolis. I consider myself quite tolerant of minor abuses, but even I was shocked and upset by the Mass I attended. The Mass opened with liturgical dancers, which I have been taught is not allowed in the United States in Catholic churches. The priest carried a cup of coffee (it wasn’t hot water, it was coffee) up to the podium and sipped from it several times during the Mass. I believe he also placed it on the altar during the consecration. There were lots of other smaller things that were definitely out of order.

It occurred to me that since Minnesota is so socially and politically liberal (they actually hoisted comedian Al Franken into the U.S. Congress through a bald-faced con game), perhaps this has slopped over into the Catholic churches.

And even though I believe totally in modern, even rock music in the Mass as a way to attract and retain modern people, I also believe that the liturgy needs to be kept intact in the Masses in the U.S., or those same modern people,along with the more traditional people, will fall away from the faith, or flee the deficient Mass.

I beg forgiveness if I am basing my opinion of Mass in Minnesota churches on just one very bad experience. I am aware that the parish I attended may be the exception and many Catholic parishes have correct, reverent OF Masses up in Minnesota.

Well, I can’t say that I’ve ever seen what you described at mass (not saying it isn’t true though).

 

[STANMOL]

Don’t panic…its been a trend for about 30 years now for large urban churches to be closing in favor of the suburbs. Its not that there are fewer catholics per se, but fewer folks who attend church regularly choose to live in cities. I lived in a city a few years ago of 100,000+ and several churches merged and closed, but in several towns around us, new churches opened up that thrived. Its just a population shift out of cities.

 

[mcrow]

Matthew 11:5 The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead rise again, **the poor have the gospel preached to them.
**

It seems to be a deception that being socially leiberal is against the Catholic Faith.

Protestants usually believe, that the wealth is God’s reward for ones merits. Catholics believe that

Matthew 19:24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I never said being liberal is against the Catholic Faith. However, generally speaking, many liberal ideals ARE AGAINST the Catholic Faith. Like abortion, stem cell reserach, gay marriage, sexual tendancies in general, euthanasia, Artificial Birth Control… just to name a few. I think it’s nearly impossible to be a liberal if you don’t support most of these issues listed above. I can see Catholics being moderate or conservative but I can’t really see how being a true liberal is compatible with being Catholic.

I will also point out that the vast majority of liberals that are religious are protestant because a good number of protestant churches support women as pastors, gays as pastors, some are OK with abortion, most are OK with ABC, and don’t actively preach anything about many of the more Catholic values.

From what I can see, the protestant churches in Minneapolis largely have full parking lots for their services.

There are a lot of things that factor into the low numbers at Catholic Churches in Minneapolis:

– Too many churches
– Changing demographics (a once large Italian,Polish and Irish following now shifting to suburbs)
– Social philosophy (liberals are in large numbers in Minneapolis and liberals are largerly either protestant or non-religious)
– Sex abuse scandal (not sure how much this affected numbers but it probably didn’t help)
– Somewhat antiquated Church. ( People seem to want to go to Church for a concert or to be entertained mroe these days, plus our values require much more effort to adhear to than most protestant churches. Some may call this more strict, I guess.)

So it’s not a single issue by any means.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The priest carried a cup of coffee (it wasn’t hot water, it was coffee) up to the podium and sipped from it several times during the Mass. I believe he also placed it on the altar during the consecration.

:coffeeread: :bigyikes:

And even though I believe totally in modern, even rock music in the Mass as a way to attract and retain modern people, I also believe that the liturgy needs to be kept intact in the Masses in the U.S., or those same modern people,along with the more traditional people, will fall away from the faith, or flee the deficient Mass.

Actually, you will find that people of all ages tend to recognize reverent, quality music, well-performed, when they hear it. What’s more important is the relevance of the music to the Mass setting (as well as to the feast day, scriptural readings, even homily), how it’s performed (accurately, reverently), and an atmosphere which promotes listening to that music. That (I agree with you) can be modern (jazzy, upbeat, etc.) or it can be ancient (gregorian chant), or something in between, but the selections and the mode of performance, as well as the atmosphere inside the church, are very important to the experience of music within the Mass.

With budget challenges, many parishes have had to cut back on their musical staff, some drastically so. Being one myself who often prays through music, this has been a great loss to me, when I see this or suffer from it. I only wish parishes would not try to “make do” with horrendously bad music and inexperienced “cantors,” and instead in those situations play a great recording of chant, or some choral setting, such as a Bach chorale, rather than feel that the congregation always has to be “entertained” with live music (no matter how bad or inappropriate).

In this regard, once again, the entire atmosphere inside the church (of which music is definitely) a part, can be an important draw, as well as a turn-off, and that’s why many people stress the importance of liturgy. It’s not a “performance,” as such, but it is an integrated whole. What I’m trying to say in a long-winded way is that great liturgies, powerfully done, at at time when people can attend, will attract large gatherings. I continue to maintain (because I see it all the time) that sincere Catholics of all ages value silence. Candelight Masses are the most reverent Masses I have attended outside of monasteries, and the ages of those attending are usually young.

Young people are night-owls. Hold late-night candelight Masses with lots of silence and well-chosen music, encourage their participation through lectoring and other roles, and they’ll come. (I’ll bet it’s even true in Minneapolis. )

 

[Phemie]

With budget challenges, many parishes have had to cut back on their musical staff, some drastically so. Being one myself who often prays through music, this has been a great loss to me, when I see this or suffer from it. I only wish parishes would not try to “make do” with horrendously bad music and inexperienced “cantors,” and instead in those situations play a great recording of chant, or some choral setting, such as a Bach chorale, rather than feel that the congregation always has to be “entertained” with live music (no matter how bad or inappropriate).

It is forbidden to use recorded music at Mass – although I know parishes don’t always comply.

Personally, I’d rather hear a congregation sing, regardless of how badly, than listen to canned music. I can listen to that music at home.

 

[idrum677]

This is the same story in many urban areas. The second and third generation immigrant population moves out into the suburbs and you’re left with declining congregations.

Also, having a full time job, there are no Mass times local to me that I can make on a daily basis. I work an hour away from home from 7-4. There are no Masses either where I live or where I work at either noon or late in the evening. My parish’s daily 5:15 Mass was cut after we got a new pastor and the only other church with an evening Mass also got rid of theirs.

I’m thankful when I have to go into downtown Boston because where there is a Franciscisn-run Shrine that has 8 masses each day as well as confession to make it convenient for the workers.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It is forbidden to use recorded music at Mass – although I know parishes don’t always comply.

I was aware of that. In my location, it tends to be used not for Mass but for other occasions such as Reconciliation Services. In that case it serves a secondary purpose of a sound barrier for the individual confessions that are heard in the nave of the Church.

Personally, I’d rather hear a congregation sing, regardless of how badly, than listen to canned music.

To each his own. My preference would be silence to bad music, or to music sung badly.

I can listen to that music at home.

I don’t have a chapel at home, so the experience of listening to great Gregorian chant in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament cannot be compared to buying a CD and playing it in a different location. I think many people would disagree with the description of Gregorian chant as 'canned," but again – to each her own.

I will tell you, though, that young people will not go to litrugies with really bad music. Build great liturgies, and they will come.

 

[jimcav]

Don’t panic…its been a trend for about 30 years now for large urban churches to be closing in favor of the suburbs. Its not that there are fewer catholics per se, but fewer folks who attend church regularly choose to live in cities. I lived in a city a few years ago of 100,000+ and several churches merged and closed, but in several towns around us, new churches opened up that thrived. Its just a population shift out of cities.

While it might not be panic time yet, it is cause for much concern.

The big shifts to the suburbs have placed a great strain on the Catholic Church. Our priests now have to cover more area to be with their congregation, and we have fewer priests to do this. Instead of a Church having 4 or 5 priests, most Churches are left with 1 or 2 and they are overworked to the point that many cannot retire. We also have to build new Churches in all of the suburban sprawl to, while taking care of the beautiful and large old parishes left in the cities, thereby costing the diocese alot of money they don’t really have. These new Churches for the most part cannot compare architecturaly to those that were built in our cities many years ago either.

This doesn’t even take into account the monasteries left in the cities that were once full of religious priests, brothers, nuns and lay people to. Financially, they will never be able to make the move to the suburbs. So they could very well be a complete loss to us all someday.

Make no mistake, the population shift along with a smaller priesthood and less dollars is really taking it’s toll on the Church…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hopefully, you’re right but talking with someone I work with many of the inner city Catholic Churches here are lucky to get 20 people for a weekend mass.

I guess part of the problem is that there’s practically a Catholic Church on every corner in Minneapolis. That and when most of these churches were opened there was a huge Irish/Italian/Polish community in Minneapolis. Many of them have moved to the suburbs now.

Not to mention Minneapolis is very socially liberal, so I think there are many fewer religious minded people than there used to be.

Time to bring the Filipinos in

If I may boast of my ethnicity, many of my co-immigrants from my home country has been filling in the pews here in the Lower Mainland, BC (Greater Vancouver area). Immigrants has been largely fueling the growth of the Catholic population in Canada. I heard a newsbit in the past too that they say that in the US, the number of Catholics is actually growing but there is a huge demographic shift to the immigrants, so Latin Americans and Filipinos who come from Catholic countries moving to the US. Here in Vancouver theres thousands of immigrants who come in every year, same for other big cities here like Toronto and even Winnipeg has become a popular immigrant destination because they’re one of the most open provinces to immigrants (maybe because of the bitter cold, no one really wants to move there except those who wish to start a new life in Canada). Although Winnipeg also is the center of Ukrainian immigrants and would have many Ukrainian Cathoic parishes.

 

[mcrow]

Time to bring the Filipinos in

If I may boast of my ethnicity, many of my co-immigrants from my home country has been filling in the pews here in the Lower Mainland, BC (Greater Vancouver area). Immigrants has been largely fueling the growth of the Catholic population in Canada. I heard a newsbit in the past too that they say that in the US, the number of Catholics is actually growing but there is a huge demographic shift to the immigrants, so Latin Americans and Filipinos who come from Catholic countries moving to the US. Here in Vancouver theres thousands of immigrants who come in every year, same for other big cities here like Toronto and even Winnipeg has become a popular immigrant destination because they’re one of the most open provinces to immigrants (maybe because of the bitter cold, no one really wants to move there except those who wish to start a new life in Canada). Although Winnipeg also is the center of Ukrainian immigrants and would have many Ukrainian Cathoic parishes.

I think some of the churches in Minneapolis have probably been saved by our Mexican American brothers and sisters who have moved into some of the areas of the city. There are a lot more spanish masses at the churches in and around the neighborhoods where latinos have moved into.

I don’t know if we have a large or small Filipino community here, but I’d love to see some of our emty churches filled with Catholics.

My uncle married a Filipino woman that he met there some years ago, she’s a sweet Catholic lady. They lived here in MN for a while before relocating to the Nashville area. However, I don’t think she knew too many people here in the Twin Cities area.

 

[Sarabande]

Time to bring the Filipinos in

If I may boast of my ethnicity, many of my co-immigrants from my home country has been filling in the pews here in the Lower Mainland, BC (Greater Vancouver area). Immigrants has been largely fueling the growth of the Catholic population in Canada. I heard a newsbit in the past too that they say that in the US, the number of Catholics is actually growing but there is a huge demographic shift to the immigrants, so Latin Americans and Filipinos who come from Catholic countries moving to the US. Here in Vancouver theres thousands of immigrants who come in every year, same for other big cities here like Toronto and even Winnipeg has become a popular immigrant destination because they’re one of the most open provinces to immigrants (maybe because of the bitter cold, no one really wants to move there except those who wish to start a new life in Canada). Although Winnipeg also is the center of Ukrainian immigrants and would have many Ukrainian Cathoic parishes.

So true. I’m part Filipina and being around them all the time, can agree with the above with no problem. And, boy, do they love to sing - in church and out. (Can’t get through a Filipino party without an all-night karoke session.)

 

[zalzankavol]

I have seen a massive upsurge in the number of hispanics in the suburban churches I have attended. City churches are losing people to the burbs all over the country.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Poetic justice if you might say. Richer nations have secularized and used artificial birth control indiscriminately. Poorer nations who are more Catholic have exploding populations. As the richer nations cannot sustain their economies with dwindling population growth rates, their only choice is to open their borders to immigrants. Enter third world country immigrants who not only will sustain the economy by filling in the jobs, but they will also fill the churches that those who have secularized and abandonned their faith left.

 

[Phemie]

So true. I’m part Filipina and being around them all the time, can agree with the above with no problem. And, boy, do they love to sing - in church and out. (Can’t get through a Filipino party without an all-night karoke session.)

We have many Filipino workers in our community and several of them attend our parish. Our Filipino pastor is going to bring in some Filipino hymns and hopes they will sing on Saturdays when we generally have no musicians and no one to lead the singing.