So the tradition of altar servers

[Cecilianus]

I agree that we don’t always have to agree. I caution how one looks at Paul and Catherine of Siena. Very often people refer to them as examples of two great saints who disagreed with the popes, but leave out the other part. Both of them were willing to submit to the authority of the pope.

Paul would not have approached Peter with his concern, if he had not regarded Peter as the head of the Church and the man with the power to make the final call on the matter in question. It is always interesting to note that Paul honors Peter by calling him Cephas, not Simon. He calls him by his title, not his name. This is very important. In Jewish custom, as in our own time, a title is only used when one acknowledges the authority of the person to whom one speaks.

Catherine ended all of her letters with, “Your obedient daughter.” In addition, she was very hard on all of her disciples when they failed to submit to the authority of the bishops, religious superiors and the popes, whether they were right or wrong…

Francis of Assisi summarized it best when he wrote his admontion on obedience. He spells out that one has the right to disagree; however, when the legitimate authority makes up his mind, one has the moral duty to submit, even if one knows better. Such submission, he says, is pleasing to both God and man and is good for growth in humility. Francis stresses the importance of remembering our place in the Church and in relation to authority. The only time when one is justified in refusing to comply is when one is asked to commit a sin. Even then, Francis explains that it is not for the individual to decide what is or is not a sin. But a sin is that which has been identified as such by the Church. Therefore, one cannot hide behind “I believe it’s a sin.” If the Church says that it’s not a sin, then one must comply, because the Church is always infallible in matters of morals. The Church cannot deceive her members to sin.

While popes may make mistakes that cause problems, they can never lead the faithful into sin, even though they can sin like any other human being. In other words, they cannot teach sin or legalize it.

We have to very careful how we use that example of Paul and Catherine. It’s gotten abused quite a bit lately. They were not the only saints who disagreed with the popes; but like the rest of the saints, they submitted to the authority of the papacy.

What is most interesting in Mystical and Ascetical theology is that the saints do not require infallibility as a condition for submission. They recognize that there is an authority that comes with the office, which has nothing to do with infallibility, but is no less legitimate and no less deserving of our submission, because man must submit to all legitimate authority out of justice. Otherwise, life becomes a conflict of wills, which is divisive. We all know who is the Father of Division.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’m not going to disagree with this. I also think, however, that the fact that we might question the prudence of what the Holy Father permits or does makes sense only if we are obeying him unconditionally and remaining in communion with him. Otherwise, I really wouldn’t care. It would mean about as much to me as does the sometimes humorous state of the Church of England.

 

[amerrychase]

Sorry ladies, but this is more “spirit of V-II” tripe pushed into the Church by the liberal modernist crowd. Alter Boys should be Alter Boys! This leads to the potential of a formation into the Priesthood. EMHCs should only be used out of necessity/ emergency and then should be male. Blurring the gender lines to hopefully achieve female priests was the reasoning behind this and the error continues.

Wake up and smell the incense.

I think this is a little unfair. Making altar girls a stepping stone to female priests may have been the original intention, but, as an ex-altar girl, I never got that vibe. My growing-up parish wasn’t exactly orthodox in everything, but neither was it a hotbed of heterodoxy. People did what they were supposed to, just with a more felt & One Bread One Body than I now think is appropriate. (These days, I attend a mixed OF/EF parish where Msgr. runs things strictly By The Book. Plenty of manlace and solid preaching.) None of the adults seemed to care one way or another. None of the nuns pushed the girls forward. It was more along the lines of, “You all are 5th graders now. Time to take some responsibility in the parish.” We all served on a rotating schedule through grade 8. I knew full well that only men could be priests and never dreamed of anything more. I was happy to learn a little more about the Mass, help Fr. out, and finally see what was in that mysterious “back room.” (Only the sacristy, but so very very exciting!) Surely most of the girls who serve now feel the same? I think 12-14 y.o.'s are a little young to be caught up in church politics…

 

[dmorgan]

What do you mean by “sorry ladies”? You seem to imply that all women approve or want these things. There are plenty of women with a traditional approach to Catholicism who reject the idea of female altar servers.

I apologize for using a global tone. Pax Christi

 

[dmorgan]

I think this is a little unfair. Making altar girls a stepping stone to female priests may have been the original intention, but, as an ex-altar girl, I never got that vibe. My growing-up parish wasn’t exactly orthodox in everything, but neither was it a hotbed of heterodoxy. People did what they were supposed to, just with a more felt & One Bread One Body than I now think is appropriate. (These days, I attend a mixed OF/EF parish where Msgr. runs things strictly By The Book. Plenty of manlace and solid preaching.) None of the adults seemed to care one way or another. None of the nuns pushed the girls forward. It was more along the lines of, “You all are 5th graders now. Time to take some responsibility in the parish.” We all served on a rotating schedule through grade 8. I knew full well that only men could be priests and never dreamed of anything more. I was happy to learn a little more about the Mass, help Fr. out, and finally see what was in that mysterious “back room.” (Only the sacristy, but so very very exciting!) Surely most of the girls who serve now feel the same? I think 12-14 y.o.'s are a little young to be caught up in church politics…

I am sorry you see this as an unfair attack, but the reality that I see every Sunday and Holy Day at my N.O. Parish are women, from 30 to late 50’s, serving as Alter servers. We have a K through 9 school with several hundred students. At least half are male and most are the children of parishioners. I have seen only 2 new boys serve in the past 2 years, but I have seen several new women (not girls) added to the ranks. We have a tremendous lack of vocations in the US and in most western countries. Perhaps this is part of the reason. Pax Christi

 

[amerrychase]

I am sorry you see this as an unfair attack, but the reality that I see every Sunday and Holy Day at my N.O. Parish are women, from 30 to late 50’s, serving as Alter servers. We have a K through 9 school with several hundred students. At least half are male and most are the children of parishioners. I have seen only 2 new boys serve in the past 2 years, but I have seen several new women (not girls) added to the ranks. We have a tremendous lack of vocations in the US and in most western countries. Perhaps this is part of the reason. Pax Christi

Oh. Altar women? That is weird, and I am more inclined to agree with you. All the servers around here, in the Midwest- that I’ve seen- have at least been children and teens.

…and it wasn’t really unfair, I was just bristling along with floresco at the “sorry ladies”, and that has been hashed out.

 

[jmcrae]

I am sorry you see this as an unfair attack, but the reality that I see every Sunday and Holy Day at my N.O. Parish are women, from 30 to late 50’s, serving as Alter servers.

This would be unheard of, in my Diocese. Altar serving is definitely seen as a role for children, and people “graduate” from Altar serving to other volunteer ministries when they reach the age of 16 and become qualified to do adult tasks, or else when they no longer feel like “one of the children” - which in some cases doesn’t happen until University age.

We have a K through 9 school with several hundred students. At least half are male and most are the children of parishioners.

You’re right - you have plenty of children to choose from, and quite a few of them would probably do it if they were asked to. It makes no sense to have adults doing what the children should be doing.

 

[Cecilianus]

This would be unheard of, in my Diocese. Altar serving is definitely seen as a role for children, and people “graduate” from Altar serving to other volunteer ministries when they reach the age of 16 and become qualified to do adult tasks, or else when they no longer feel like “one of the children” - which in some cases doesn’t happen until University age.

You’re right - you have plenty of children to choose from, and quite a few of them would probably do it if they were asked to. It makes no sense to have adults doing what the children should be doing.

I don’t mind having adults serve - it used to be a Minor Order, after all - but I’ve honestly never seen “altar women”. Nor do I want to.

You actually find adult servers quite frequently in traditional parishes. A lot of Tridentine Masses have adult men serving. None of these types of churches would have altar girls or altar women, obviously.

(Incidentally, though I’m supposed to stay on the Roman Rite in this forum, a lot of Byzantine liturgies also use adult men - mostly people transferred or fled from the Roman Rite - as altar servers. And, of course, no altar females. It shouldn’t be that unusual.)

 

[JReducation]

I don’t mind having adults serve - it used to be a Minor Order, after all - but I’ve honestly never seen “altar women”. Nor do I want to.

You actually find adult servers quite frequently in traditional parishes. A lot of Tridentine Masses have adult men serving. None of these types of churches would have altar girls or altar women, obviously.

(Incidentally, though I’m supposed to stay on the Roman Rite in this forum, a lot of Byzantine liturgies also use adult men - mostly people transferred or fled from the Roman Rite - as altar servers. And, of course, no altar females. It shouldn’t be that unusual.)

I have seen it happen at the early morning mass, because there are very few men who attend and none of them step up to the plate to do it. I’ve always wondered why it looked so discomforting to me. I certainly understand what’s happening. It’s their parish and the males just sit there like bumps on a log. I can appreciate the one or two ladies who step up and help at the lavabo, which is when they really help. Anyway, I’ve wondered if it looks wrong to me because it’s not what I’m accustomed to seeing. Sometimes, when we’re not used to seeing something and it suddenly appears before our eyes, it can be jarring, almost like a color that’s too loud. In other words, I have wondered if it jars me more because I’m not used to it than because the ladies are wrong in helping. Just some of my thoughts.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Layman]

You have to press-gang them! In a nice way, of course. That works at one of the TLMs I attend.

 

[PLAT]

This would be unheard of, in my Diocese. Altar serving is definitely seen as a role for children, and people “graduate” from Altar serving to other volunteer ministries when they reach the age of 16 and become qualified to do adult tasks, or else when they no longer feel like “one of the children” - which in some cases doesn’t happen until University age.

That’s probably me. (you may have noticed my age in another thread)Btw There are a few University students in my altar society, usually being the “President/Vice President of the society”.

You’re right - you have plenty of children to choose from, and quite a few of them would probably do it if they were asked to. It makes no sense to have adults doing what the children should be doing.

Well yeah should we suggest adults to help at the back stage?

 

[ProVobis]

I have seen it happen at the early morning mass, because there are very few men who attend and none of them step up to the plate to do it. I’ve always wondered why it looked so discomforting to me. I certainly understand what’s happening. It’s their parish and the males just sit there like bumps on a log. I can appreciate the one or two ladies who step up and help at the lavabo, which is when they really help. Anyway, I’ve wondered if it looks wrong to me because it’s not what I’m accustomed to seeing. Sometimes, when we’re not used to seeing something and it suddenly appears before our eyes, it can be jarring, almost like a color that’s too loud. In other words, I have wondered if it jars me more because I’m not used to it than because the ladies are wrong in helping. Just some of my thoughts.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

JR, in the pre-Vatican II days when priests said Masses in the nuns’ chapel, the nuns took upon the task of responding to the priests’ prayers in Latin and ringing of the bells at the appropriate times. But they did this all from their pews. Point well-taken about the males like bump in a log comment, though. Male servers would shy away from serving in the nuns’ chapel.

 

[Layman]

I think we’ve become too casual about Mass. It’s taken for granted and inserting mundane elements and removing ones which emphasise sacredness doesn’t help. At all.

Now, how many Catholics today can attend:

A sung, Latin Mass,
Said by a bishop,
Served by priests,
In beautiful vestments,
In a beautiful church,
Stuffed with lit candles, gold framed icons and statues of saints,
Accompanied by an organ, played by an expert?

Shame, isn’t it?

After all the millions of pounds and millions of hours spent trying to reach the laity, by other means, in the past 40+ years.

The Mass. Done properly, a wonderful propaganda tool for Christ, Christianity and itself.

 

[Cecilianus]

I think we’ve become too casual about Mass. It’s taken for granted and inserting mundane elements and removing ones which emphasise sacredness doesn’t help. At all.

Now, how many Catholics today can attend:

A sung, Latin Mass,
Said by a bishop,
Served by priests,
In beautiful vestments,
In a beautiful church,
Stuffed with lit candles, gold framed icons and statues of saints,
Accompanied by an organ, played by an expert?

Shame, isn’t it?

After all the millions of pounds and millions of hours spent trying to reach the laity, by other means, in the past 40+ years.

The Mass. Done properly, a wonderful propaganda tool for Christ, Christianity and itself.

But of course, none of the laity really WANT that, including the thousands of us who delusionally say we do…

Besides, we have to be more relevant to teens and early 20s folk like me, since we’re too young to know what’s good for us yet, and what we really need is guitar music from our parents’ generation rather than plainchant like we think we want.

 

[Layman]

But of course, none of the laity really WANT that, including the thousands of us who delusionally say we do…

Besides, we have to be more relevant to teens and early 20s folk like me, since we’re too young to know what’s good for us yet, and what we really need is guitar music from our parents’ generation rather than plainchant like we think we want.

Should have inserted:

Said by a holy bishop;

Why not shoot for the moon!

 

[JReducation]

I think we’ve become too casual about Mass. It’s taken for granted and inserting mundane elements and removing ones which emphasise sacredness doesn’t help. At all.

Now, how many Catholics today can attend:

A sung, Latin Mass,
Said by a bishop,
Served by priests,
In beautiful vestments,
In a beautiful church,
Stuffed with lit candles, gold framed icons and statues of saints,
Accompanied by an organ, played by an expert?

Shame, isn’t it?

After all the millions of pounds and millions of hours spent trying to reach the laity, by other means, in the past 40+ years.

The Mass. Done properly, a wonderful propaganda tool for Christ, Christianity and itself.

But of course, none of the laity really WANT that, including the thousands of us who delusionally say we do…

Besides, we have to be more relevant to teens and early 20s folk like me, since we’re too young to know what’s good for us yet, and what we really need is guitar music from our parents’ generation rather than plainchant like we think we want.

I’m lost. What do these have to do with male altar servers?

We don’t have any of the above in our houses. They have never been allowed since the 1200s. The Carthusians never had it in their houses for 1200 years. Nor have the Benedictines or the Carmelites. The gold, all of the candles, the bishop saying mass, the priests serving as deacons and subdeacons, statues and icons, none of this has ever been found in the chapels and churches of monks and mendicants.

Let’s not generalize. These were beautiful works that were part of certain churches, usually cathedrals or the seat of an abbot. The majority of the parish churches had what they could afford and they put it together with great love.

But that’s not the question here. The question is about male altar servers. The answer actually is that according to canon law, this particular ministry is appropriate to acolytes. Acolytes are adult males who are permanently instituted for this ministry. This is not a ministry for children. The reason that we have had little boys do it was because Pope Pius X changed the rules on the age for reception of First Communion. He brought it down. Under the previous practice, you did not make your first Holy Communion until you were in your teens. It’s still this way in some countries. That meant that you could not become an acolyte until you were a young man.

When Pius X lowered the age for Holy Communion, this allowed young boys to fill in when acolytes were not available. But it was never law that this is a ministry or liturgical role for young boys. The young boys were there to supply a need, because of a shortage of acolytes.

There was a time in the history of the Church where many men were acolytes. These were not seminarians. These were single and married men. In most religious communities of men, all of the religious were acolytes, whether they were studying for the priesthood or studying to be teachers. I’m an acolyte and I’m not a priest. I’m a theology professor. Permanent acolytes have always existed. It’s just that the numbers decreased significantly after the Middle Ages.

I don’t know why bishops do not offer this option to adult men in their diocese. There must be some good reason.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Please say on topic.

 

[CatholicGirl28]

No there isn’t at the mass I attend. But I think there are a few at the spanish mass at my parish. I also think there is nothing wrong with girls being alter servers. “Its preperation for priesthood” do you realize that most men are or at one time were alter servers and most of them didn’t or never even thought of becoming a priest? Very few people in the whole world are called to the priesthood and all of them are men. So sense girls can’t do it anyway I don’t think they will feel a calling to be a priest. The pope says its alright for girls to be alter servers then it is. The pope is called by God to make desicions for the church and I’m sure he probably prays a lot for help from God to make the right desicions. So being an female alter server is perfectly fine.

• Catholicgirl28

 

[hartleymartin]

My parish prefers not to use female alter servers. Unfortunately one female server makes a regular pest of herself, and she is only tolerated by the clergy and other servers there. From what I hear from many other parishes around Sydney, there always seems to be at least one female alter server who fancies herself to be a “deaconess” and is always talking about women priests.