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GaryTaylor
Guest
How long have your practiced contemplative prayer now?
Monica, I can take a sinner and fly him to Vatican City, when he gets to St Peters Square, heāll still be sinner but in a different area.
The key that unlocks everything is prayer recitation. Prayer is the Door to Christ. Consistant,daily prayer recitation brings one closer and closer to a perpetual state of grace. The more you strive to stay on the path, the more you will remain on the path. Grace from Christ is given by staying of the path. You cannot be in this state and then actually believe Christs church is of evil. Its impossible. The fact that God grabs souls from the depths of despair who are not on His path, is only a testament to His Mercy.
The Catholic Church and the Sacrements and Obligations are a Blessing. For me, because I am a sinner, I couldnāt grasp this without the daily Prayer. The daily prayer is what connected all the dots for me. And its also what I refused to do for so long. And its satan who places all the nonsense in our heads.
I can also assure you its a commitment to a lifestyle which draws you slowly towards Christ. If you have prayed daily for say a āyearā. Say for example the Rosary because it comes to my mind and I do it.[there are many Catholic Devotions which could be applied]. Once you have committed yourself to this path for year, and followed the Confession, Communion, Sunday Mass, Holy day of Obligations etc. You have had to begin to see clearer the Truth about Jesus Christ and His Church. And He also must be drawing you closer. Its the path of the Cross to the Cross. Its not wrong, maybe there is a moment of doubt, and evil is so tricky. Thanks be to God that He understands this and has given us a proven path to follow. When Christ said āPick up your Cross and follow Meā. He is telling us the path right in that verse.
It cannot be any other way, nor can it be wrong. The only piece that is a variable is that we are different and God works in everyones life different. And being that we all have a different personality, then the essense of evil will effect us all differently and how it plays off us [confidence, pride etc]. Nonetheless the consistency on the path through Church and prayer must constantly draw us closer to God. The mistakes have to become less.
Being your part of Gods family, he is in your life daily and he does love you. The process must be then be to actively seek God. Humility and the draining of all self-serving thinking also is an essencial part of the process. Your painting a masterpiece. And the name of it is, Your Soul in Heaven. So work on it like you actually want to get it right.
Prays are with you,
God Bless, GT
Monica, I can take a sinner and fly him to Vatican City, when he gets to St Peters Square, heāll still be sinner but in a different area.
The key that unlocks everything is prayer recitation. Prayer is the Door to Christ. Consistant,daily prayer recitation brings one closer and closer to a perpetual state of grace. The more you strive to stay on the path, the more you will remain on the path. Grace from Christ is given by staying of the path. You cannot be in this state and then actually believe Christs church is of evil. Its impossible. The fact that God grabs souls from the depths of despair who are not on His path, is only a testament to His Mercy.
The Catholic Church and the Sacrements and Obligations are a Blessing. For me, because I am a sinner, I couldnāt grasp this without the daily Prayer. The daily prayer is what connected all the dots for me. And its also what I refused to do for so long. And its satan who places all the nonsense in our heads.
I can also assure you its a commitment to a lifestyle which draws you slowly towards Christ. If you have prayed daily for say a āyearā. Say for example the Rosary because it comes to my mind and I do it.[there are many Catholic Devotions which could be applied]. Once you have committed yourself to this path for year, and followed the Confession, Communion, Sunday Mass, Holy day of Obligations etc. You have had to begin to see clearer the Truth about Jesus Christ and His Church. And He also must be drawing you closer. Its the path of the Cross to the Cross. Its not wrong, maybe there is a moment of doubt, and evil is so tricky. Thanks be to God that He understands this and has given us a proven path to follow. When Christ said āPick up your Cross and follow Meā. He is telling us the path right in that verse.
It cannot be any other way, nor can it be wrong. The only piece that is a variable is that we are different and God works in everyones life different. And being that we all have a different personality, then the essense of evil will effect us all differently and how it plays off us [confidence, pride etc]. Nonetheless the consistency on the path through Church and prayer must constantly draw us closer to God. The mistakes have to become less.
Being your part of Gods family, he is in your life daily and he does love you. The process must be then be to actively seek God. Humility and the draining of all self-serving thinking also is an essencial part of the process. Your painting a masterpiece. And the name of it is, Your Soul in Heaven. So work on it like you actually want to get it right.
Prays are with you,
God Bless, GT
S
Sonic
Guest
Monica, I recommend you get a copy of A Still, Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations by Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel. It sets down some very practical rules to help anyone sort through all the confusion you described.Thanks for the replies everyoneā¦
I think what worries me most is what happened to me before / after reading this storyā¦ I never go to that forum, but I really felt like I should, and then I found this story there. And then afterwards, I asked God that if itās true, I would open the Bible to a page about idolatry, and it opened to that page. I donāt knowā¦I guess things like that can come not only from God. I mean there are so many stories that DO support the Catholic faith that seem equally if not more valid. And Iāve had my own experiences with Mary and the Saints. But I was feeling confused before so maybe that contributed. Iām really not sure what to think still
amazon.com/Still-Small-Voice-Practical-Revelations/dp/0898704367
K
katholicchik
Guest
I know. iām on drugs lol. sorry. I was trying to delete it but how do you delete previous comments!???old thread?..the question was only posted today
my dose of humility this morning I guess.crystal_waters
New member
this link is greatā¦ i heard about her years agoā¦thanks so much for sharing the link:thumbsup:
W
waterbrook
Guest
Hi there!
From what you are saying it sounds as if you are in a similar position to that in which I found myself many years ago when I was a student. With the benefit of hind sight I can now see how unhelpful the different views that I was exposed to were. The first thing to remember is that (you say you are catholic) you have been baptised and incorporated in to Christā¦Christ never lets us goā¦He does and always will love you whether you are Catholic, orthodox or protestant. A good spiritual director would be helpful now or alternatively a counsellor or therapist who can help you to grow in confidence and knowledge of yourself. Knowing ourselves can help us to grow in our knowledge of God it can help us to recognise what we think and believe for ourselves and therfore to recognise where God might be calling us to. When all is said and done being a Christian is living in relationship with God in Jesus so may be go back to basicsā¦the basics that all Christians hold on to such as The Lordās prayer and the gospels would be helpful. Remember God loves each of us no matter what denomination we belong toā¦God is bigger than the Church!
From what you are saying it sounds as if you are in a similar position to that in which I found myself many years ago when I was a student. With the benefit of hind sight I can now see how unhelpful the different views that I was exposed to were. The first thing to remember is that (you say you are catholic) you have been baptised and incorporated in to Christā¦Christ never lets us goā¦He does and always will love you whether you are Catholic, orthodox or protestant. A good spiritual director would be helpful now or alternatively a counsellor or therapist who can help you to grow in confidence and knowledge of yourself. Knowing ourselves can help us to grow in our knowledge of God it can help us to recognise what we think and believe for ourselves and therfore to recognise where God might be calling us to. When all is said and done being a Christian is living in relationship with God in Jesus so may be go back to basicsā¦the basics that all Christians hold on to such as The Lordās prayer and the gospels would be helpful. Remember God loves each of us no matter what denomination we belong toā¦God is bigger than the Church!
crystal_waters
New member
if you still want to read that sort of stuffā¦then heres a link of church approved Catholic mystics
mysticsofthechurch.com/
mysticsofthechurch.com/
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
Dear Monica,Hi,
Iām going through a really difficult time in my faith. I donāt know what to do
Today, I was on another forum and as I was about to go, I felt like I should go visit the charismatic section of the forumā¦ I have not visited anything except the Catholic or the Orthodox sections for a long time. I went there and clicked on a thread that had this story, which I will link below. Previous to this, I was very confused if I should be Catholic or Orthodox, and for the past several days, Iāve felt like I have a sin on my soul that I am not seeing clearly and Iāve been praying for repentanceā¦ now, after reading this story, I am even more confused. It talks about the rapture, and Catholics worshipping idols, and Pope John Paul II being in hell. Itās a story of a girl who died and saw Jesus, Heaven, and hell. I know that there are TONS of stories like this everywhereā¦ especially on the internetā¦ and I even heard near death experience stories where people were told that there is no hell, no sin, etc. So I completely realize how unreliable they are. But I feel so confused and so far from God that this really shook my faith. Iāve been praying for a while now trying to repent of all the possible times I have committed idolatry by bowing before images, praying to Mary, hoping in her help for my salvation, etc, - but I know that when I did those things, I never meant to worship, only to venerate, and I have always believed in Jesus as my Saviourā¦ however if He shows me that I was wrong, i will repent, I donāt want to lose Him.
I really donāt undertand, because Iāve read many MANY stories of people experiencing miracles of conversion, etc, because of Maryā¦ and stories from the lives of the Saintsā¦ I canāt figure out, - what is the truth? Should I be Catholic, Orthodox, or (now) Protestant? I believe in the Eucharist thoughā¦
here is the story: spiritlessons.com/Documents/Prepare_to_meet_your_God/index.htm
I donāt get it, cause Iāve read so many equally valid stories that say the exact opposite! who is deceived? If this girl is wrong, what did she experience? I donāt believe that the devil would ever tell people to repent of sinā¦ yet both Jesus in this story and Mary in various apparitions talk about repentance - which one is the valid apparition?
I know we should focus on public revelation but at this point, I donāt even know if Iām supposed to just focus on the Bibleā¦
please pray for me, I feel like I donāt know what the truth is, and I canāt find God, I feel SO far from Him, and canāt seem to repent of anything
Youāll never figure out what truth is by focusing on private revelations. As you well know, there are private revelations that say the exact opposite of one another, all over the place, and also NDEās that contradict one another. By reading about such things and worrying about them, youāre wasting time and energy.
Focus instead on solid data, on how we know whether or not our public revelation is in fact infallible. For infallible public revelation is one of the key means God has given us to judge the accuracy of private revelation. Private revelations are all fallible, and Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants alike will tell you that you should not judge public revelation (such as the Bible) by private revelation, but rather you should judge private revelation by the public revelation.
To distinguish between whether or not Orthodoxy or Catholicism is true, you need to know whether the Papacy is from God or not. Whether or not it is indeed infallible.
You cannot find this out by studying private revelations. Studying private revelations will be no help to you whatsoever.
You need to read the Church Fathers and the Bible, study the history of the Early Church and the scriptures, in order to discern this.
To that end, I recommend these books:
Stephen K. Rayās, āUpon This Rock: St. Peter and the Primacy of Rome in Scripture and the Early Churchā, a very good book. You can buy it here: amazon.com/Upon-This-Rock-Scripture-Apologetics/dp/0898707234/ref=pd_sim_b_1
And āPeter, Jesus and the Keys,ā which is denser and harder to read, but more thorough. You can buy it here: amazon.com/Jesus-Peter-Keys-Scriptural-Handbook/dp/1882972546
You could buy either of these books at your local Catholic bookshop, most likely.
You can also read Orthodox books or website articles, to get a more thorough reading of both sides of the argument. I donāt know what books they would recommend.
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
Protestantism is not a serious candidate for truth (unless, of course, one is basing oneās judgment on private revelation, in which case ANYTHING could be a serious candidate for truth). It is not a serious candidate because Sola Scriptura is the foundation of Protestantism, and itās not in the Bible. Protestant apologists will generally admit that itās not mentioned in the Bible, or at least not explicitly. But they will generally also say that all major doctrines should be in the Bible, explicitly, because that is the single means God has provided by which we are to know truth. Therefore, Sola Scriptura invalidates itself.
Also, the Bible does not mention that Christians should assemble a canon of sacred books. It also does not mention what books should be in this canon. But if Scripture alone is our single source of infallible truth, and it doesnāt mention these things, then the existence of the Bible is based merely on the tradition of men. So the Bible should not even exist, if Sola Scriptura is true.
Furthermore, if one accepts Sola Scriptura, because one has no infallible canon, one cannot know which books are infallible and therefore the entire Bible becomes potentially fallible. Which means the entirety of Christianity becomes potentially fallible and subject to fallible human judgment.
And in addition to all this, Protestants will say that to understand the Bible truly, we must listen to the Spirit Who illuminates it for us, yet they will furthermore say that whatever we think weāve heard from God must be tested against the Scripture. Therefore they cannot know what the Bible means without the Spirit, because they are fallible, yet we cannot rely on the spirit unless it matches our fallible human interpretations of the Bible. Neither hearing the Spirit alone nor hearing the Bible alone is infallible, because we could be deceived by the spirit or could be misinterpreting the Bible. Consequently, both listening to the Spirit and reading the Bible as our single source of truth are fallible means of knowing God. Two fallible means of listening to God, combined, do not equal an infallible means of listening to God. They equal only fallibility.
So the Bible cannot be interpreted with any certainty in Protestantism, and what it contains is a matter of uncertainty, in Protestantism, and that it should exist at all is a matter of uncertainty, in Protestantism.
Furthermore, the Early Church did not believe in Sola Scriptura. It did not come on the scene until the 2nd millennium. Which means it has no history. Jesus did not set it up ā or if He did, He allowed it to be instantly crushed to oblivion.
Besides all this, the Bible was always extremely expensive until the printing press was invented. For that reason, only various clergy and nobles could afford to own it. This wasnāt a result of the Church suppressing the Bible but was simply the economic result of the huge amount of time and labor it took to accurately hand-copy a Bible. They were very hard to make, very costly, and consequently very, very few Christians owned them.
So if God DID design Sola Scriptura, and wanted Christians to use only Scripture to know truth infallibly, He was setting up a system almost no one could use. Almost no Christians would be able to make use of this āSola Scriptura;ā almost all Christians would be left in the total darkness of mere human tradition, simply because of the economic realities of the first 1500 years of Christian history.
It would be as if Jesus came on the scene today and said, āI am establishing a new means of receiving truth in the world, and it is the only one that anyone is allowed to use, but only millionaires will have access to it.ā
Sola Scriptura is the key doctrine on which all Protestantism is based, but it makes no sense, either biblically, historically or practically.
On the other hand, it has created endless divisions within Christianity, because hundreds of millions of Protestants are right now interpreting their version of the Bible (not the one the Early Church canonized, for most Protestants read versions of the Bible that exclude the deuterocanonical books which were always accepted by Christians up to the Reformation) according to their own human understanding, and are coming to endless different conclusions, even on matters the Bible describes as essential to salvation. Thus there are thousands of different denominations in Protestantism, and millions of non-denominational Christians, among whom the doctrinal diversity is becoming even greater.
Protestantism is obviously not a real candidate for truth. Unless you put an excessive emphasis on private revelations ā which Protestants also will say are unreliable.
To discern between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, I strongly recommend buying the two books I recommended, while searching for good sources approaching the issue from an Orthodox perspective too, and read both sides prayerfully.
Take the issue to the facts and donāt judge based on your personal spiritual experiences.
Also, the Bible does not mention that Christians should assemble a canon of sacred books. It also does not mention what books should be in this canon. But if Scripture alone is our single source of infallible truth, and it doesnāt mention these things, then the existence of the Bible is based merely on the tradition of men. So the Bible should not even exist, if Sola Scriptura is true.
Furthermore, if one accepts Sola Scriptura, because one has no infallible canon, one cannot know which books are infallible and therefore the entire Bible becomes potentially fallible. Which means the entirety of Christianity becomes potentially fallible and subject to fallible human judgment.
And in addition to all this, Protestants will say that to understand the Bible truly, we must listen to the Spirit Who illuminates it for us, yet they will furthermore say that whatever we think weāve heard from God must be tested against the Scripture. Therefore they cannot know what the Bible means without the Spirit, because they are fallible, yet we cannot rely on the spirit unless it matches our fallible human interpretations of the Bible. Neither hearing the Spirit alone nor hearing the Bible alone is infallible, because we could be deceived by the spirit or could be misinterpreting the Bible. Consequently, both listening to the Spirit and reading the Bible as our single source of truth are fallible means of knowing God. Two fallible means of listening to God, combined, do not equal an infallible means of listening to God. They equal only fallibility.
So the Bible cannot be interpreted with any certainty in Protestantism, and what it contains is a matter of uncertainty, in Protestantism, and that it should exist at all is a matter of uncertainty, in Protestantism.
Furthermore, the Early Church did not believe in Sola Scriptura. It did not come on the scene until the 2nd millennium. Which means it has no history. Jesus did not set it up ā or if He did, He allowed it to be instantly crushed to oblivion.
Besides all this, the Bible was always extremely expensive until the printing press was invented. For that reason, only various clergy and nobles could afford to own it. This wasnāt a result of the Church suppressing the Bible but was simply the economic result of the huge amount of time and labor it took to accurately hand-copy a Bible. They were very hard to make, very costly, and consequently very, very few Christians owned them.
So if God DID design Sola Scriptura, and wanted Christians to use only Scripture to know truth infallibly, He was setting up a system almost no one could use. Almost no Christians would be able to make use of this āSola Scriptura;ā almost all Christians would be left in the total darkness of mere human tradition, simply because of the economic realities of the first 1500 years of Christian history.
It would be as if Jesus came on the scene today and said, āI am establishing a new means of receiving truth in the world, and it is the only one that anyone is allowed to use, but only millionaires will have access to it.ā
Sola Scriptura is the key doctrine on which all Protestantism is based, but it makes no sense, either biblically, historically or practically.
On the other hand, it has created endless divisions within Christianity, because hundreds of millions of Protestants are right now interpreting their version of the Bible (not the one the Early Church canonized, for most Protestants read versions of the Bible that exclude the deuterocanonical books which were always accepted by Christians up to the Reformation) according to their own human understanding, and are coming to endless different conclusions, even on matters the Bible describes as essential to salvation. Thus there are thousands of different denominations in Protestantism, and millions of non-denominational Christians, among whom the doctrinal diversity is becoming even greater.
Protestantism is obviously not a real candidate for truth. Unless you put an excessive emphasis on private revelations ā which Protestants also will say are unreliable.
To discern between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, I strongly recommend buying the two books I recommended, while searching for good sources approaching the issue from an Orthodox perspective too, and read both sides prayerfully.
Take the issue to the facts and donāt judge based on your personal spiritual experiences.
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