So, wars will not mark the end of the world?

[whatevergirl]

Please read below…Now, I have read this many times before, but today, it struck me as pertinent to today’s events…so, the wars that have been waging between nations…these are not signs of end times, then? This passage stuns me every time I read it, because Jesus spoke for all generations…it’s like He just said this yesterday.

Thoughts?

Gospel
Lk 21:5-11

While some people were speaking about
how the temple was adorned with costly stones and votive offerings,
Jesus said, “All that you see here–
the days will come when there will not be left
a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.”

Then they asked him,
“Teacher, when will this happen?
And what sign will there be when all these things are about to happen?”
He answered,
“See that you not be deceived,
for many will come in my name, saying,
‘I am he,’ and ‘The time has come.’
Do not follow them!
When you hear of wars and insurrections,
do not be terrified; for such things must happen first,
but it will not immediately be the end.”
Then he said to them,
“Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be powerful earthquakes, famines, and plagues
from place to place;
and awesome sights and mighty signs will come from the sky.”

 

[Liberian]

Whatever Girl,

While it is indeed true that the end of time will be marked with wars and rumors of wars, that does not mean that any given war is a sign of the end of times.

• Liberian

 

[rtconstant]

In terms of conflict we might be living in one of the more stable times in history. We just no about what’s going on around the world these days so it seems worse. I’m not saying we’re living in the end times, but at the same time I’m not sure I see anything particular today that would suggest that we are.

 

[Della]

Jesus no where states that wars will increase or that some huge cataclysm will happen just before the end of the world. What he is saying is that wars, famines, earthquakes, etc. will happen up until the end of the world. We have to remember that the “end times” began with the Annunciation. We have been living in the end times for 2000 years, and mankind may live through many thousands of years more before the Second Coming. The thrust of Jesus’ remarks in this passage is:

“See that you not be deceived,
for many will come in my name, saying,
‘I am he,’ and ‘The time has come.’
Do not follow them!"

He went on to say that no one knows the day and the hour of his return, not the angels of heaven or anyone else except the Father. So, if even the angels are not privy to such knowledge we can hardly know when it will be. We are always to be ready precisely because we cannot and do not know when Jesus will return.

 

[thistle]

Jesus no where states that wars will increase or that some huge cataclysm will happen just before the end of the world. What he is saying is that wars, famines, earthquakes, etc. will happen up until the end of the world. We have to remember that the “end times” began with the Annunciation. We have been living in the end times for 2000 years, and mankind may live through many thousands of years more before the Second Coming. The thrust of Jesus’ remarks in this passage is:

“See that you not be deceived,
for many will come in my name, saying,
‘I am he,’ and ‘The time has come.’
Do not follow them!"

**He went on to say that no one knows the day and the hour of his return, not the angels of heaven or anyone else except the Father. So, if even the angels are not privy to such knowledge we can hardly know when it will be. We are always to be ready precisely because we cannot and do not know when Jesus will return./**QUOTE]

I totally agree with you. Jesus told us to always be ready so I’ve never understood why so many people are looking for signs in order that they can prepare for the end days.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi whatevergirl, your texts tie in with Matthew 24 and with the temple being destroyed. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and that is what I believe Jesus was prophecying in those texts. Concerning the end times Paul writes,

1 Thessalonians 5

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the **day of the Lord **so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us **watch and be sober. **

7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

everyone does not feel safety and peace during times of war.

 

[JimG]

While some people were speaking about
how the temple was adorned with costly stones and votive offerings,
Jesus said, “All that you see here–
the days will come when there will not be left
a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.”

Here he is speaking of the destruction of the temple, which in fact occurred in 70 AD.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Amen JimG

 

[runandsew]

Scripture can have more that one fulfillment. These things were fulfilled with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but they also point to the end of the world.

 

[TOME]

I have to agree with Della and Thistle, we just do not know when the Final Coming will take place. If you study the gospels, especially Luke, Jesus is very clear that when the end of the world will take place is God’s decision. Our task, as Christians, is not to be looking for signs - it is a waste of time and goes against Christ Jesus’ instructions. Our task is to be always prepare for that moment and the only way to be prepared is to live our lives as Christ demanded of all his followers, namely to live our lives in service to one another and motivated by Faith, Hope and Love.

 

[spauline]

I don’t fully agree with “the apocalypse is totally irrelevant”.

As the CCC and 2Thess2 says, the mystery of iniquity will be revealed, which is not when Jesus is coming back in terms of the day and hour, but that the Church will recognize when the fullness of Gentiles has been attained and then, consequently, when the Gentiles will be departing from the Gospel in a final and irrevocable manner. But therein is the whole apocalyptic question: Just what will the fullness of Gentiles consist in? Will Christians be reunited? And if so, to what degree will be the fullness of Gentiles? Will Catholicism and heartfelt practice thereof be extended throiugh near totality of earth for some period, or are the pessimistic Augustinians right in that they say, “because of sin, there will always be significant evil”? Which then raises questions about modern times: is this great secularly apostate culture the beginning of great apostasy, or can faith be renewed? But this then depends on question of whether general Christian unity can be attained. For the unimaginable disunity of Christians is an impediment and one of main reasons world has lost faith?

I do not say we “worry about signs”, it is more we should seek to understand God’s total Plan, including the spiritual devs that take place b/ First and Second Comings. So apoc is not totally irrelevant. Else, why is it in Scripture?

 

[thistle]

I don’t fully agree with “the apocalypse is totally irrelevant”.

As the CCC and 2Thess2 says, the mystery of iniquity will be revealed, which is not when Jesus is coming back in terms of the day and hour, but that the Church will recognize when the fullness of Gentiles has been attained and then, consequently, when the Gentiles will be departing from the Gospel in a final and irrevocable manner. But therein is the whole apocalyptic question: Just what will the fullness of Gentiles consist in? Will Christians be reunited? And if so, to what degree will be the fullness of Gentiles? Will Catholicism and heartfelt practice thereof be extended throiugh near totality of earth for some period, or are the pessimistic Augustinians right in that they say, “because of sin, there will always be significant evil”? Which then raises questions about modern times: is this great secularly apostate culture the beginning of great apostasy, or can faith be renewed? But this then depends on question of whether general Christian unity can be attained. For the unimaginable disunity of Christians is an impediment and one of main reasons world has lost faith?

I do not say we “worry about signs”, it is more we should seek to understand God’s total Plan, including the spiritual devs that take place b/ First and Second Comings. So apoc is not totally irrelevant. Else, why is it in Scripture?

God’s plan is that those who stay true to him and die in a state of grace will join him in Heaven (most likely with a stop in Purgatory first).
Jesus clearly and unambiguously told us to ALWAYS be ready so we do not have to look for signs in order to get ready.
Therefore how does trying to understand the Book of Revelations help me. I know what I have to do. I do not need to look for signs or understand this particular book.

 

[Evan]

I’m always a little disappointed when the feast of Christ the King comes at the end of the liturgical year and Jesus does not come on a cloud in majesty and awe.

Oh well, next year in Jerusalem!

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Therefore how does trying to understand the Book of Revelations help me. I know what I have to do. I do not need to look for signs or understand this particular book.

That is a good question. Revelations is sacred scripture so it must have crucial meaning for us. God does not do things to no purpose. Isn’t Revelations describing the Mass in some sense. I think I remember a Scott Hahn lecture like that.

It should be a wake up call for what is happening at Mass for us in the now.

 

[spauline]

God’s plan is that those who stay true to him and die in a state of grace will join him in Heaven (most likely with a stop in Purgatory first).
Jesus clearly and unambiguously told us to ALWAYS be ready so we do not have to look for signs in order to get ready.
Therefore how does trying to understand the Book of Revelations help me. I know what I have to do. I do not need to look for signs or understand this particular book.

I didn’t mean that fully understanding Book of Rev is NECESSSARY for salvation. Of course, it isn’t, for for 2000 years, there are deeper questions on Book of Rev and other doctrinal issues that are not resolved or known, and yet we can still be saved.

But what you seem to suggest is that why even bother to understand Book of Rev.

Here’s a few reasons that I would say: understanding Scripture and Divine Rev better can only help us love God more, for the more we understand about Him, the better we can love him. Secondly, it helps ecumenism: saying to Fundies that Apoc is totally irrelevant, or that preterism is the only sense we need is bad for ecumenism. There is a history not only of OT but age of Church, and age of Church is precisely history of Catholic Church. I don’t believe that everything in between very beg and very end of Church history is irrelevant. If you believe that, I’d say you are not fully orthodox. And so we have seen that because of sin, both in and out of Church, doctrinal development of Church has been attacked, and there have arisen great rifts and categories of faith that are not fully true, and much of division has led to great loss of faith. And so we see negative side of Jesus’ prayer in John 17:20-23. To ask will there be positive side, will wounds to unity be healed, is a question of Scripture and even Catholic doctrine, even CCC. I think that as Church understands this better, it will help ecumenism.

these are just few reasons to study Apoc. I am not fundie. It’s like people can’t understand “middle of road”. Typical Catholic assumes anything other than preterism is fundie, or else totally speculation. Church has never said preterism is all there is to apoc.

 

[thistle]

I didn’t mean that fully understanding Book of Rev is NECESSSARY for salvation. Of course, it isn’t, for for 2000 years, there are deeper questions on Book of Rev and other doctrinal issues that are not resolved or known, and yet we can still be saved.

But what you seem to suggest is that why even bother to understand Book of Rev.

Here’s a few reasons that I would say: understanding Scripture and Divine Rev better can only help us love God more, for the more we understand about Him, the better we can love him. Secondly, it helps ecumenism: saying to Fundies that Apoc is totally irrelevant, or that preterism is the only sense we need is bad for ecumenism. There is a history not only of OT but age of Church, and age of Church is precisely history of Catholic Church. I don’t believe that everything in between very beg and very end of Church history is irrelevant. If you believe that, I’d say you are not fully orthodox. And so we have seen that because of sin, both in and out of Church, doctrinal development of Church has been attacked, and there have arisen great rifts and categories of faith that are not fully true, and much of division has led to great loss of faith. And so we see negative side of Jesus’ prayer in John 17:20-23. To ask will there be positive side, will wounds to unity be healed, is a question of Scripture and even Catholic doctrine, even CCC. I think that as Church understands this better, it will help ecumenism.

these are just few reasons to study Apoc. I am not fundie. It’s like people can’t understand “middle of road”. Typical Catholic assumes anything other than preterism is fundie, or else totally speculation. Church has never said preterism is all there is to apoc.

You are missing my point. I’m not saying not to read Revelations. I’m saying that too many people put more emphasis on this book than the Gospels which I find a tragedy (and I’m saying this from knowing people who have done this). I’m saying that with regard to trying understand Rev. primarily to look for signs of the end days (not other aspects of our faith) is ridiculous. Its enough if we obey Jesus when he told us to always be ready. If people are always ready then why would they need signs?? Looking for signs, to my mind, implies folks are leading a sinful life and do not intend to give it up until they can see signs that the end is near and then they decide to get ready.

 

[spauline]

You are missing my point. I’m not saying not to read Revelations. I’m saying that too many people put more emphasis on this book than the Gospels which I find a tragedy (and I’m saying this from knowing people who have done this). I’m saying that with regard to trying understand Rev. primarily to look for signs of the end days (not other aspects of our faith) is ridiculous. Its enough if we obey Jesus when he told us to always be ready. If people are always ready then why would they need signs?? Looking for signs, to my mind, implies folks are leading a sinful life and do not intend to give it up until they can see signs that the end is near and then they decide to get ready.

I agree with you if person is just looking for signs, and then they’ll repent, I agree that’s bad.

But just for the record, I’m not one of them. That is, I’m not “looking for signs that world is ending.” I am interested in understanding totality of salvation history. Unanswerred questions of* spirituality* (not, will russia do this or that to france, or iraq, or any other pointless things) : like, will Catholic Doctrine ever be vindicated through reunion of Christians and restoration of faith. Stuff like that.

blessings to you!

 

[thistle]

I agree with you if person is just looking for signs, and then they’ll repent, I agree that’s bad.

But just for the record, I’m not one of them. That is, I’m not “looking for signs that world is ending.” I am interested in understanding totality of salvation history. Unanswerred questions of* spirituality* (not, will russia do this or that to france, or iraq, or any other pointless things) : like, will Catholic Doctrine ever be vindicated through reunion of Christians and restoration of faith. Stuff like that.

blessings to you!

I agree you are not one of them. I’ve seen your comments on Rev. in other threads and I like them.
Because of the OP talking about signs my comments only relate to signs.

 

[spauline]

I agree you are not one of them. I’ve seen your comments on Rev. in other threads and I like them.
Because of the OP talking about signs my comments only relate to signs.

Dear thistle,

thanks or clarification and compliment, and I’m sorry I misunderstood you.

Blessings!
scott