So, were Mary and Joseph married?

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Today the priest at the homily called Our Blessed Mother an “unmarried woman”. :confused: I understand that he possibly meant her being unmarried at the moment of Annunciation, when she was still just betrothed to Joseph, but nevertheless, this confused me a lot.

So, were Mary and Joseph legally husband and wife:
  1. by the Jewish law, and
  2. from the Christian understanding of a sacramental marriage?
I remember the early Canon law authors responding positively to this question, which was one of the main arguments for them that a Christian marriage may be possible even without consummation by sexual relationship.
 
JurisPrudens said:
Today the priest at the homily called Our Blessed Mother an “unmarried woman”. :confused: I understand that he possibly meant her being unmarried at the moment of Annunciation, when she was still just betrothed to Joseph, but nevertheless, this confused me a lot.

So, were Mary and Joseph legally husband and wife:
  1. by the Jewish law, and
  2. from the Christian understanding of a sacramental marriage?
I remember the early Canon law authors responding positively to this question, which was one of the main arguments for them that a Christian marriage may be possible even without consummation by sexual relationship.
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Hello,

That’s unfortunate.

Yes, they were married. Applying “Christian understanding” to their marriage would be a bit anachronistic but…yes, they were married according to Jewish law, Christian law, natural law.

It would not have been a “sacramental marriage”, however, since that requires two, baptized (i.e., Christian) Parties.

Here’s a sermon by Cardinal Burke on the topic.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2015/01/a-sermon-by-cardinal-burke-on-marriage.html#.VwJuDWD2YdU

Dan
 
In the modern sense of a bodily “consummated” marriage, no.

In the sense of vows taken according to the Jewish Law (God’s law), yes.

ICXC NIKA
 
Jewish law says that if the ketubah (marriage contract) is valid and its provisions are fulfilled (like the stuff about dowry or whatever), and if you go through the marriage ceremony before sunset on the day named on the ketubah, you are married.

Catholic canon law requires consummation for a marriage to be indissoluble. However, if neither party to the marriage complains about the marriage being non-consummated, and neither of them is looking to dissolve it, it’s still a valid marriage.

(Heck, there are a lot of things which could be grounds for annulment, but none of them are grounds if neither party complains. The only stuff that invalidates a marriage without the parties complaining is stuff like marriage under duress, or other versions of the marriage being totally done wrong and thus not existing in any way in the first place. Otherwise, there’s a basic assumption that the marriage is valid.)

So yes, of course Mary and Joseph were legally married.
 
Catholics do believe that valid, unconsummated marriages can exist. However, they may be dissolved, unlike consummated marriages.

Also, while they were in the betrothal period, this had culturally different implications than it would today. Such a betrothal at that time was pretty much already an official marriage. There was just about a year of waiting before she moved in with her husband.
 
In discussing canon law on marriage, there is a distinction made between “intrinsic” and “extrinsic” indissolubility. All marriages are intrinsically indissoluble, whether consummated or not and whether sacramental or not. Indissolubility is an essential property of marriage (see canon 1056).

Marriages, therefore, are to be considered “indissoluble” even before consummation. In other words, the Parties themselves are unable to dissolve their marriage.

Sacramental and consummated marriages are intrinsically and extrinsically indissoluble. The Parties cannot dissolve the marriage nor can any external power (such as the Pope–e.g., for non-consummated marriages, or the law itself (Pauline privilege)).

Death, of course, can dissolve any marriage bond.

Dan
 
Mintaka said:
Jewish law says that if the ketubah (marriage contract) is valid and its provisions are fulfilled (like the stuff about dowry or whatever), and if you go through the marriage ceremony before sunset on the day named on the ketubah, you are married.

Catholic canon law requires consummation for a marriage to be indissoluble. However, if neither party to the marriage complains about the marriage being non-consummated, and neither of them is looking to dissolve it, it’s still a valid marriage.

(Heck, there are a lot of things which could be grounds for annulment, but none of them are grounds if neither party complains. The only stuff that invalidates a marriage without the parties complaining is stuff like marriage under duress, or other versions of the marriage being totally done wrong and thus not existing in any way in the first place. Otherwise, there’s a basic assumption that the marriage is valid.)

So yes, of course Mary and Joseph were legally married.
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Thanks, I think, this is the most helpful comment. :thankyou:
 
Wesrock said:
Catholics do believe that valid, unconsummated marriages can exist. However, they may be dissolved, unlike consummated marriages.

Also, while they were in the betrothal period, this had culturally different implications than it would today. Such a betrothal at that time was pretty much already an official marriage. There was just about a year of waiting before she moved in with her husband.
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I didn’t know that.
 
ClearWater said:
I didn’t know that.
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Read Matt: 18-25. 19-- and her HUSBAND, Joseph, a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send Her away quietly. (He couldn’t have done that if he wasn’t validly married to Her.) Clearly states that Mary was his wife, and the Angel said. "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary, your wife, for that which is conceived in Her is of the Holy Spirit. Read it for yourself. So for anyone, let alone a priest, to call Her an unwed Mother is such a shame and an insult towards God and the Blessed Mother. Do you really think HE would do that to the Immaculate Mother of HIS DIVINE SON.There was no Sacrament of Marriage until Jesus Christ raised it to that Sacrament. Consummation was not an issue then. Fr. Pacwa has explained that several times. God Bless, Memaw
 
dans0622 said:
Hello,

That’s unfortunate.

Yes, they were married. Applying “Christian understanding” to their marriage would be a bit anachronistic but…yes, they were married according to Jewish law, Christian law, natural law.

It would not have been a “sacramental marriage”, however, since that requires two, baptized (i.e., Christian) Parties.

Here’s a sermon by Cardinal Burke on the topic.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2015/01/a-sermon-by-cardinal-burke-on-marriage.html#.VwJuDWD2YdU

Dan
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Are you telling me that Jesus’s parents don’t earn a sacramental marriage in your view?
 
The movie Mary of Nazareth does a good job showing this.

Back in those days their was a “legal marriage first” called the betrothal where you were legally married. However, the wedding ceremony would not take place until the home was built and ready for the couple to move into it.

The betrothal is sort of a kin to the engagement today (though not exactly). The couple has agreed to marry, but the ceremony hasn’t taken place yet.
 
phil19034 said:
The movie Mary of Nazareth does a good job showing this.

Back in those days their was a “legal marriage first” called the betrothal where you were legally married. However, the wedding ceremony would not take place until the home was built and ready for the couple to move into it.

The betrothal is sort of a kin to the engagement today (though not exactly). The couple has agreed to marry, but the ceremony hasn’t taken place yet.
Click to expand...
They were legally married and if Joseph would have died, Mary would have inherited whatever was his. The year gave them time too prepare for their home. He the home, she the linens, pottery etc. Nothing “unwed” about it. It’s a shame we try to put our standards on them. Actually, their Marriage was more than a Sacrament, it was SACRED. I wouldn’t dare question the Wisdom of GOD. God Bless, Memaw
 
Any Married women who was accused of adultery could have been stoned to death or “put away quietly” by her husband. But not a boyfriend (so to speak). The only way Joseph could have done that, (put Her away quietly), would have been if he truly was Her husband. To accuse Mary of adultery would have been an insult to God"s Wisdom and her purity. The Angel saw to it that that didn’t happen. Calling Her an "unwed mother "I think is an insult to God and Her. The reason Joseph has been portrayed as and old man by artists is their way, (I think) of preserving Mary’s purity. Guess they didn’t think a young man could do God’s will and protect Her, but there is NO proof whatever of Joseph being old or widowed with children. God Bless, Memaw
 
The Catholic Church has never taught that. Seems he was pretty spry for all the traveling he had to do and the work he did. Carpentry in those days was not an old mans work, I wouldn’t think.God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
The Catholic Church has never taught that. Seems he was pretty spry for all the traveling he had to do and the work he did. Carpentry in those days was not an old mans work, I wouldn’t think.God Bless, Memaw
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I don’t think there is a teaching either way.

In school, the sisters’ taught us that one tradition was that Joseph was older and a virgin.

Joseph and Mary were married. I heard a sister spout this same nonsense.
 
adrift said:
I don’t think there is a teaching either way.

In school, the sisters’ taught us that one tradition was that Joseph was older and a virgin.

Joseph and Mary were married. I heard a sister spout this same nonsense.
Click to expand...
To say there is not teaching either way is a bit silly. The Catholic Church TEACHES. It doesn’t deal in either way stuff. Either it is a teaching or it isn’t. We come up with that idea. The only Tradition the Catholic Church teaches is Sacred Tradition, not lower case traditions. Those are man’s guesswork. God Bless, Memaw.
 
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