So what do I do now

  • Thread starter Thread starter mozart-250
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mozart-250

Guest
Warning…long post…but I’ve been doing some thinking…

So what do I do now: .

First of all, my issues with the Catholic faith in no particular order.
  1. The Catholic Church has not demonstrated to me what other faith sources exists with authority exactly equal to the Bible. It has convincing arguments that the Bible by itself is not sufficient (sola scriptura), however, that in itself does not demonstrate clearly that other sources exist with equal authority to the Bible.
  2. The Catholic Church has not demonstrated to me that they are the one true Church as opposed to everyone else. They have convincing arguments that they are the historic Church, however, this does not establish it as the one true Church in opposition to everyone else. I can take offense when I see on what seems to be an official web page that Protestant = heretic. When the gospel is proclaimed in the 10-40 window, does almighty God care that much who it is that is spreading the message.
  3. Much of the discussion around “sola fide” seems confusing to someone like me who is not theologically inclined. However the mortal sin questions that I have read here are very troubling. Is my eternal destination, heaven or hell, like a light bulb, on and off. I would be damned to hell 100s of times each week, particularly since Jesus says doing the sin in your heart is the same as acting it out. Some of the mortal sin questions I have read seem quite petty and some of the answers downright lawyerly. Going to hell because you drink soda before the Eucharist … puhleeze. I can now understand how some non-Catholics get the impression that Catholics are working for their salvation instead of working out their salvation.
Now the other side:
  1. I am unconvinced that whatever conditions existed in the Church in the 1500 time frame justified the resultant schism called the Reformation. The burden of proof here rests on those saying this schism is justified. Unless demonstrated otherwise, I must believe that the schism was not God’s will, and what we have in reality in the 21st century is a divided Catholic Church. My best analogy might be a messy divorce where both parties are in fact culpible.
  2. Using similar logic, if the Catholic Church were the only game in town and the Reformation had never happened, I am quite positive that whatever issues I may have would not justify a schism. Certainly I would join it if the alternative were “no church” and I would “eat my differences” as I have been doing all along.
  3. The reliance that the Catholic Church has upon the Church fathers, particularly the authors in 100-300 AD or so is admirable. I am appalled at how little I know of Church history, and wonder why that is the case. From what little I have read, the early church seems to be a “very primitive” version of … well … surprise … at least in part … the Catholic Church.
  4. The Catholic Church does not seem (for the most part) to have slipped into the error of Modernism that has been the plague of 20th Century mainline Protestantism.
  5. Even though I am not convinced the Catholic Church is the “one true Church”, the Catholic Church is obviously the historic church. Therefore she should be treated with great respect. I sense there is value in being associated with the historic church.
  6. On any other issues that I have at least given some thought to where Catholics and non-Catholics have traditionally disagreed, the Catholic positions seems to be at worst possible and at best preferable to the tradition Protestant ones. To be specific, I find a literal reading of the Communion Scriptures and their relationship to John 6 to be preferable to a non-literal reading. On a personal level, I would find the sacrament of reconciliation helpful also.
One question that I have that I don’t know the answer to is whether becoming Catholic is even possible given where I am at. I have arguments both ways.

I probably will be posting less frequently if at all since I have most of the answers to my questions, and arguing theology is not my style. If I were to become Catholic at some point, one thing that would be very helpful would be an in-the-flesh devoutly Catholic friend as I tend to be quite the reclusive type. I might even take it as a sign from God.
 
What do you do now… Take your time and meet some people.

Pontius Pilate asked Jesus “what is truth?”

That is one of the most important questions we should consider. Truth is not opinion it just is.
So as such we accept it even if we do not like it, I can’t breathe water so I tend to avoid doing it when I am swimming. I am a poor swimmer so sometimes it is unavoidable, but that is the way it is.

So the Catholic Church is either the Church Jesus Christ founded or it is some other Church. Regarding your first statement about the Bible. A Bible cannot have authority without understanding, or else it becomes whatever point of view it is approached from.
(somehow Muslims are able to extract that Jesus escaped from their interpretation of the gospels)
We must look to God as the author of the faith not man, so we must look to before the Bible, since the Bible didn’t exist complete until a few hundred years after Jesus.

My wife is telling me to get off the computer and fix the phone so I will leave the rest to someone else to answer. As a Catholic I have no fear of truth and am happy to answer any question, so feel free to PM me if you would like anything more.

God Bless
Scylla
 
First of all, my issues with the Catholic faith in no particular order.
Click to expand...
Which I believe can be sorted out with simple common sense and a bit more reading on your part. 😉
  1. The Catholic Church has not demonstrated to me what other faith sources exists with authority exactly equal to the Bible. It has convincing arguments that the Bible by itself is not sufficient (sola scriptura), however, that in itself does not demonstrate clearly that other sources exist with equal authority to the Bible.
Click to expand...
You are misunderstanding what the Bible is. It is not an authority. It is a collection of writings. Only persons can be authorities not objects. Using the US Supreme Court for an example. The Court uses the Constitution (supposedly) to make its decisions on matters of law. But, the Constitution itself has no right to make any rulings. Only the body of people who make up the Court can do that. Do you see the difference? It’s a good place to start to understand the place the Bible has within the Church, for the Bible is one part of the Sacred Tradition (the teaching of Christ and the Apostles) handed down to us by the Church.
  1. The Catholic Church has not demonstrated to me that they are the one true Church as opposed to everyone else. They have convincing arguments that they are the historic Church, however, this does not establish it as the one true Church in opposition to everyone else. I can take offense when I see on what seems to be an official web page that Protestant = heretic. When the gospel is proclaimed in the 10-40 window, does almighty God care that much who it is that is spreading the message.
Click to expand...
Assuming Christ established his Church, as he said he did, then there is only one true Church–the one he established. That’s plain enough. The Catholic Church is the Church founded on Christ and the Apostles. All others came from it in one way or another. Some got separated from it due to circumstances outside the control of the Church, and others simply left the Church or split with the main Church. But, the one, true Church Christ established is still here–the Catholic Church, and it will be here when all the others have frittered away their spiritual heritage to become more and more secular, as can clearly be seen happening in our day.
  1. Much of the discussion around “sola fide” seems confusing to someone like me who is not theologically inclined. However the mortal sin questions that I have read here are very troubling. Is my eternal destination, heaven or hell, like a light bulb, on and off. I would be damned to hell 100s of times each week, particularly since Jesus says doing the sin in your heart is the same as acting it out. Some of the mortal sin questions I have read seem quite petty and some of the answers downright lawyerly. Going to hell because you drink soda before the Eucharist … puhleeze. I can now understand how some non-Catholics get the impression that Catholics are working for their salvation instead of working out their salvation.
Click to expand...
Drinking a can of soda before receiving the Eucharist IS NOT a mortal sin! Deliberately profaning the Eucharist with a nice big meal as if receiving Christ’s very body and blood, soul and divinity is just so much eating a wafer and drinking a sip of wine is, though. Surely you can see the difference? St. Paul warned us against this kind of irreverence in the strongest terms.

And if some of the language used to define mortal sin seems lawyerly, it’s because the Church is very careful in its care of souls. A good confessor will establish intentions, knowledge, and motivations when hearing sins confessed in order to bring healing and comfort to sinners, not condemnation. That’s not the Church’s job–to condemn anyone. Even excommunication is not a sentence of eternal damnation, but a warning to the sinner to repent and be reconciled to Christ and his Church, which is what a good parent does with an errant child. And in the eyes of Christ, all of us are errant children whom he desires to be reconciled to the Father’s love, which is why he established his Church in the first place, yes?
 
Good morning!

I took the liberty of looking at some of your past posts to see where you were coming from. In my opinion, you are thinking things through very well, and you have pointed out some failings on our part as Catholics of proving the positive of joining the Church, not just disproving the negative. Those positives are there, but you may not have read them on this forum, and your lack of a close Catholic friend, strong in their faith, is a contributor to you lack of proof. Is it wrong to demand proof? No. That’s why we were given reason and senses. It’s a matter of which form of proof you are willing to accept.

One point in my reasoning for Catholicism is the entire mechanism of salvation that the Church presents. It makes sense to me that we were meant to be led and shepherded through our lives and towards heaven. The theological depths of the faith and the bible, our trust in historical accounts, historically high illiteracy rates, the inavailability of the printed form, all point to the inadequacy of our personal knowledge to ensure salvation. The Church was designed by Jesus to guide us in matters of faith and morals, and bypass all the above issues. Modern examples of Church guidance through emerging medical moral questions (i.e. cloning, frozen embryos, etc) is a further example of our need for guidance. Millions of individual interpretations will not do, and we need authority.

The Catholic Church is the only truly authoritative Trinitarian Christian Church. To me, it’s establishment through apostolic succession is clear (it may not be to you), and the establishment of this apostolic succession comes from the need for authority, and logically leads to infallibility. Follow that with our need for sacraments, the eucharist / priesthood connection, and it all starts to come together. The Church, as established by Christ, is perfect.

“Faith is an act of the intellect, moved by the will, moved by the grace of God” - CCC

I’m praying for you, brother, and please pray for me too. I need to overcome some sin right now. Thanks!
 
40.png
mozart-250:
So what do I do now:
Click to expand...
Let your mind descend into your heart as you pray in silence and stillness.
 
mozart-250,

I loved your post. You are a seeker and a thinker and God loves that in his children. Your heart is open yet your mind is not convinced. You need even more of the former as well as additional inquiry to inform your mind.

My first suggestion to you is this:

Pray deeply and pray often. Ask God to take your heart and place it within the consuming fire of his love so as to make your heart like a burning coal set ablaze with the Father’s love. Love the truth and seek the truth no matter where it takes you. This preparation of heart will open the mind and will to what God ultimately wants for you.

Secondly:

Follow your heart and choose a holy and knowledgeable Catholic to help you in your search for the truth. Read and study. Find out what brought others to the Church that had the same misgivings you have. Find out what helped them overcome their misgivings and in some cases outright bias. There are answers to every question and in most cases the answers, when given a full hearing, are sublimely satisfying.

The Holy Spirit is working within you…let Him have His way with your heart and mind and you will rejoice in what God’s gives you.
 
40.png
mozart-250:
First of all, my issues with the Catholic faith in no particular order.
  1. The Catholic Church has not demonstrated to me .
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church has demonstrated convincingly, clearly, with authority, under the protection of the Holy Spirit, the truth of her doctrines for over 2000 years. You mean to say either you have not read or heard a demonstration that convinces you, or that you have read or heard such a demonstration, but do not believe it. Do not put the burden on the Church, place it on yourself, to seek more understanding and to pray for more faith.
 
What should you do now?

As others have suggested, Pray.

Pray long, and pray hard. Pray for His truth to be revealed to you. Or if you feel you can in good conscience do so, pray for faith to believe in the authority of the Catholic Church.

Sometimes after we have thoroughly researched things we just have to take a step of faith. Maybe that is what God is waiting for, a step of faith to what you know to be the Historic Church of Christ.

God Bless you and keep you safe,
Maria
 
Brother,

I think PAX hit it right on the head when he encouraged you to keep seeking and to keep praying.

God is love all the time and he is always there waiting for anyone who seeks him. Keep praying and keep seeking, and as importantly keep cooperating with the Holy Spirit and the Lord will find you.

I would suggest that you not be so concerned with the apologetic arguements vis a vis the Catholic church being the one true church etc (eventhough I believe all that to be true) right now. With faith no explanantion is neccessary, without faith no explanation will suffice ( I apologize for forgetting who first said this but it was not me), don’t try to hard to analyze everything, just be open.

Lastly, I would encourage you to keep posting notes on this website. Maybe you do not need to right now but the Lord is working with you and through you.

For myself, I am amazed at the work that God as gardener can perform using all of us even if we are badly broken tools.

God Bless you, I am excited for you and the journey you are taking.
 
40.png
mozart-250:
  1. The Catholic Church has not demonstrated to me that they are the one true Church as opposed to everyone else. They have convincing arguments that they are the historic Church, however, this does not establish it as the one true Church in opposition to everyone else. I can take offense when I see on what seems to be an official web page that Protestant = heretic. When the gospel is proclaimed in the 10-40 window, does almighty God care that much who it is that is spreading the message.
Click to expand...
Notice that Christ never preached against the teachings of the Jews, He only preached against them adding burdens to people and their hypocricy. Christ always was in conformity to Judaism. He specifically says that He did not come to break the law but to fullfill it. He also tells the apostles to listen to what the Pharisees say(but don’t do as they do) because they sit on moses seat. He never encouraged decent. Likewise He also set up His Church upon the rock and He told His apostles those who reject them reject Him and those who reject Him reject the Father. Christ gives them great authority. In Matt.16 He gives Peter authority to bind and loose. In Matt.18 He gives the rest of the apostles authority to bind and loose. In John 20 He gives the apostles the authority to forgive sins and to retain sins. He also said the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. In the first chapter of Acts you see the apostles apointing a successor to Judas. They pick Mathias. Here you can see that Christ had established a united Church. Those who rejected its leaders rejected Christ Himself.

Since you say you can accept the Catholic Church as the historical Church you should know what it claims. It claims its bishops are successors of the apostles. They trace the lineage of bishops back to the apostles. From the council of Nicea(probably back much further) they required that a bishop is ordained by three or more bishops. They claim apostolic authority due to this succession.

If you can accept that the Catholic Church is the historical Church, then you can logically conclude that it is the One True Church which Christ founded. In the 1600’s St Francis de Sales was preaching to a town of Calvinists. One of his arguements for the legitimacy of the Catholic Church(and against the legitimacy of the protestant churches) was the explanation of ‘mission’. It is absolutely necessary that a person be granted their mission from some authoritative source, otherwise you get chaos and people opposing eachother around every corner. Mission simply refers to the fact that you have authority to preach.

He explained how the protestants have no mission to preach against the Church or apart from the Church. If protestantism is legitimate, they should have some mission granted from an authoritative source. There are two kinds of mission, immediate and mediate.

Mediate mission refers to a mission granted by a bishop or leader of the Church. It also must be in accordance with the Church as it has always taught. This might refer to a priest; the bishop gives a priest authority to do the sacraments and preach. The protestants have no immediate mission because they were not ordained by a bishop and they were preaching against the historical church.

Immediate mission refers to a mission given directly from God. This would refer to something like the prophets. It would also refer to Christ because He was sent by God Himself. The protestants did not have this either though. They did not have this for several reasons. First, they were not preaching as a member of the Church, they were openly preaching against it(As said above, Christ was preaching as a Jew and wasn’t going against Judaism). Secondly, Christ was prophesied. The Jews knew that the Christ was coming and they knew what He was going to do. There is not one prophecy of the protestants. Thirdly, Christ was the great reformer. He formed when we were created and He reformed us when He suffered, died, and ressurrected. Christ established the Church, there was no room for a reformer of the Church. Fourth, immediate mission must also be in conformity with the Church. God never grants a mission in opposition to what He has already given. If the Catholic Church is the historical Church then God will not grant a mission in oposition to that Church because it was found by Himself and it was given its mission. It would also be impossible to tell whehter someone has an immediate mission. Anyone could claim it(as do many protestants who start their own churches). That is one reason why it must be in conformity with the Church.
 
40.png
mozart-250:
  1. Much of the discussion around “sola fide” seems confusing to someone like me who is not theologically inclined. However the mortal sin questions that I have read here are very troubling. Is my eternal destination, heaven or hell, like a light bulb, on and off. I would be damned to hell 100s of times each week, particularly since Jesus says doing the sin in your heart is the same as acting it out. Some of the mortal sin questions I have read seem quite petty and some of the answers downright lawyerly. Going to hell because you drink soda before the Eucharist … puhleeze. I can now understand how some non-Catholics get the impression that Catholics are working for their salvation instead of working out their salvation.
Click to expand...
Mortal sin is actually a tough concept to get when you think about it. On the surface it is pretty simple. The surface is just that a mortal sin is a grave sin, that was done with free will, and full knowledge. But there are mitigating factors that makes it a little less clear cut. What is a mortal sin for one person may not be a mortal sin for another. I think it is more about whether you are living in sin or not. Your sins become your lifestyle. We are supposed to get to the point where we do not sin anymore. If we do sin, we are supposed to repent immediately. God desires salvation for all. If a person truely desires salvation, they will recieve it. Repentance is the key to it.
 
Mozart250:

Read your honest post.

My $0.02.

You are in no man’s land now.

Pray and study the Catholic faith some more so the picture gets more clear. Secondly, don’t panic. Know that God is with you through all of this and have confidence that the honest seeker of Truth will find it as Christ promised.

The last which is the most unfavorable choice you have is ignore the whole thing. Many people give up just when they’re about to break through…

So with God’s guidance may you persevere in weeding out truth.

Should you become a Catholic one day, you might experience what GK Chesterton said so well. The Catholic Church is larger inside than it is outside. Only the ones inside a Gothic Cathedral truly enjoy the beauty of its architecture, stained glass and the richness of the environment. This is true in the physical sense but even more true in the spiritual sense.

I think you should stick around.

in XT,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top