So What if Miracles Exist?

[christcnection1]

So What if Miracles Exist?..

This was the argument from one of my friend’s professors. His perspective was essentially, “so what what if miracles exist? That doesn’t mean there is a God or a higher power.”

Generally speaking, when people experience something “supernatural,” they tend to look to a higher power. Many of us have turned to God because of miraculous and unexplainable experiences. But just because apparitions, miraculous healings, and other phenomena exist, does that mean that it’s from the hand of the Divine?

It’s an interesting viewpoint to have. I was wondering what Catholics and all Christians make of this. I am also curious what the view of the skeptic/agnostic is regarding this statement.

I know if I had not experienced many “supernatural” things, there is no way I would be a Christian today.

 

[tobias]

So What if Miracles Exist?..

This was the argument from one of my friend’s professors. His perspective was essentially, “so what what if miracles exist? That doesn’t mean there is a God or a higher power.”

Generally speaking, when people experience something “supernatural,” they tend to look to a higher power. Many of us have turned to God because of miraculous and unexplainable experiences. But just because apparitions, miraculous healings, and other phenomena exist, does that mean that it’s from the hand of the Divine?

It’s an interesting viewpoint to have. I was wondering what Catholics and all Christians make of this. I am also curious what the view of the skeptic/agnostic is regarding this statement.

I know if I had not experienced many “supernatural” things, there is no way I would be a Christian today.

It is one thing to deny miracles exist in the absence of personal experience, but for him to say ‘so what if they exist’ is rather odd, though he’s right in that it does not prove the divine. But, a truly ‘miraculous’ event is a suspension of the natural, so supernatural or anatural, either way, proof of other than natural realitie/s, which should at least give one pause.

 

[promethius]

So What if Miracles Exist?..

This was the argument from one of my friend’s professors. His perspective was essentially, “so what what if miracles exist? That doesn’t mean there is a God or a higher power.”

Generally speaking, when people experience something “supernatural,” they tend to look to a higher power. Many of us have turned to God because of miraculous and unexplainable experiences. But just because apparitions, miraculous healings, and other phenomena exist, does that mean that it’s from the hand of the Divine?

It’s an interesting viewpoint to have. I was wondering what Catholics and all Christians make of this. I am also curious what the view of the skeptic/agnostic is regarding this statement.

I know if I had not experienced many “supernatural” things, there is no way I would be a Christian today.

This is actually totally subjective based on your view of miracles. To explain, there are two major fundamental views of miracles which we should discuss:

1. Miracles take the IMPROBABLE and make it happen. Nothing done in a Miracle is IMPOSSIBLE. As an example, at Lourdes people “saw” the sun stop moving and dance in the sky. In this viewpoint, the sun didn’t ACTUALLY stop moving (after all, people in Germany didn’t see the sun stop and dance, and not everyone at Lourdes reported seeing the same thing). Instead, we would say that the people in the 15 kilometer radius around Lourdes had a mass hallucination. Is this impossible? No. Is it improbable? Yes, this is the only time in history that 45,000 people reported seeing visions of the sun behaving in such a fashion. Under this view it would be possible to say that there is still no deity… that it was merely extreme coincidence. Incidently, this perspective on miracles is my view, but I think it foolish to trust extreme coincidence to be the cause of such miraculous events.
2. Miracles make the IMPOSSIBLE occur. In this view, what was seen at Lourdes was truth. The sun stopped in the sky and danced around. What happened was a violation of physical law, meaning that miracles are fundamentally SUPERNATURAL. Because scientific understanding of the universe states that the physical law is universally constant and unbendable, this means that there MUST be a higher power if miracles exist which violate that physical law… otherwise, if we determine that miracles in this case do not mean God exists, we must also admit that miracles in this case mean that our understanding of the physcical existance around us is flawed, and that science itself is a broken field which has utterly failed to capture the real nature of the universe as a whole.

Hope that helps

 

[christcnection1]

Hope that helps

Yes, it does. I think you gave a good example too. I know a number of very educated and honest individuals who have experienced the “miracle of the sun” in different times and places. It seems to be one of the unique and common miracles in the Catholic faith.

Although I can’t say for certain where this professor would come down, I believe that he would say that just because something phenomenal happened beyond our understanding, does not mean that a deity is behind it. Based on what my friend said, I don’t think he went into great depth. He was not a philosophy teacher, if I remember correctly.

This is parallel to how I view it…

If you are by yourself in a room, hear a knock and then your name called, does that mean there is someone on the other side trying to get your attention? No, not necessarily. You could be delusional, they could be knocking at another door calling out to another individual who just so happens to have your name. I’m sure there are multiple possibilities.

The point is, for one to hold the same perspective as the professor is like hearing the knock at the door, while hearing your name, but clinging to any excuse not to open the door. Furthermore, if you come up with enough excuses for a long enough time, the knocking will stop and whoever and whatever is behind the door will leave.

I think you get the point…

I’m afraid this is the way many “skeptics” are, though, to be fair, some I will give due credit.

 

[cranster]

Instead, we would say that the people in the 15 kilometer radius around Lourdes had a mass hallucination. Is this impossible? No. Is it improbable? Yes, this is the only time in history that 45,000 people reported seeing visions of the sun behaving in such a fashion

Just a minor correction. The miracle of the sun happened at fatima, and it viewed by between 75,000 and 100,000 people as well as people over about a 30 mile radius.

Now a mass halucination is another story. A halucination is something that is subjectively generated within an individual based on their own psychy. That’s why they call it internal stimuli. I find it rather hard to believe that even 2 people could have the same hallucination at the same time. That would mean that 2 seperate brain chemistries would have to generate an identical internal image at the same time based on the individual make up of each unique psychy. Highly improbable indeed and bordering impossible. In fact 75,000 people all generating the same internal image at the same time would be a greater miracle than the sun dancing in the sky.

 

[cranster]

For those who use the “mass halucination” theory as an explanation for the miracle of the sun really have to make a mental leap from logic and accept an absurdity as an explanation for that event. A gravitational anomaly in the milky way would be far more probable than a mass halucination, but the fact that the event coincided at the same time the event was predicted has to be given a tremendous amount of weight in the direction of a miracle. Since every one present was soaking wet when the event began from a heavy rain, and dried out along with the ground they were standing on at the conclusion of the event further removes it from a mass halucination or mass hysteria. Since it was an event predicted by what the 3 children claimed was an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and then came to pass in reality, weighs very very heavily in the direction of a Divinely inspired miracle.

 

[crowonsnow]

For those who use the “mass halucination” theory as an explanation for the miracle of the sun really have to make a mental leap from logic and accept an absurdity as an explanation for that event. A gravitational anomaly in the milky way would be far more probable than a mass halucination, but the fact that the event coincided at the same time the event was predicted has to be given a tremendous amount of weight in the direction of a miracle. Since every one present was soaking wet when the event began from a heavy rain, and dried out along with the ground they were standing on at the conclusion of the event further removes it from a mass halucination or mass hysteria. Since it was an event predicted by what the 3 children claimed was an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and then came to pass in reality, weighs very very heavily in the direction of a Divinely inspired miracle.

I think the phrase you’re looking for is mass psychogenic illness, like the dancing plague.

Could you distinguish between a miracle and a miracle story, or are they the same?

 

[cranster]

I think the phrase you’re looking for is mass psychogenic illness, like the dancing plague.

Could you distinguish between a miracle and a miracle story, or are they the same?

Here is an account of what happened, "According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world. Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became “suddenly and completely dry.”

Here is the definition of psychogenic illness taken from American family physician, “Sometimes people in a group start to think they might have been exposed to something dangerous, like a germ or a toxin (poison). They might get signs of sickness like headache, dizziness, faintness, weakness or a choking feeling. If many people in the group start to feel sick at about the same time, we might think they have mass psychogenic illness”. It says nothing about hallucination.

As you can see they are 2 distinctly different things. If it was a group of 100,000 people that only experienced dizziness and headaches together I feel relatively confident that’s all that would have been reported. That event could have triggered psychogenic illness but was not in and of itself that condition. Now this was something that happened in 1917 and was photographed, with too many witnesses to simply dismiss as a physiological or psychological phenomena. I’ve never heard of an illness that can suddenly dry out clothes.

To answer your second question let’s take a look at Gemma whom Padre Pio made the sign of the cross with his stigmatized wounds on her blind eyes. She was examined by many physicians, and though she was still declared to have no pupils she could see. She couldn’t see anything before he prayed for her. What I just did was gave you the story of a miracle, but to Gemma who sees out of previously blind eyes, and the physicians that examined her and could give no medical explanation it was a miracle. When she subjected herself to the medical community for examination she subjected herself to the scrutiny of the world. You would have to decide for yourself whether to take the word of the trained medical professionals who examined her. If you decide to dismiss their word, then if not theirs, whose word would you take? Then you should ask yourself why you’re inclined to dismiss such evidence.

I can tell you why it’s easy for me to accept things like that because I had an extraordinary encounter with the person of Jesus Christ, and because of that encounter It’s easy for me to believe in miracles, but that doesn’t mean that claimed miracles shouldn’t be held to scrutiny by the scientific community… they should and hers was. I’m not going to believe anything and everything, but the claims that are held up to rigorous scientific scrutiny and have been found to have no natural explanation should be seriously considered as an actual miracle from Jesus Christ since that’s whose name they were performed in.

 

[cranster]

Oh by the way when unseeing eyes without pupils suddenly being able to see when a Priest with non healing wounds in his hands, feet, and side for 50 years makes the sign of the cross on said eyes with the wounds in his hands… I consider that equal to an amputee being healed.

 

[Swan]

So What if Miracles Exist?..

This was the argument from one of my friend’s professors. His perspective was essentially, “so what what if miracles exist? That doesn’t mean there is a God or a higher power.”

Generally speaking, when people experience something “supernatural,” they tend to look to a higher power. Many of us have turned to God because of miraculous and unexplainable experiences. But just because apparitions, miraculous healings, and other phenomena exist, does that mean that it’s from the hand of the Divine?

It’s an interesting viewpoint to have. I was wondering what Catholics and all Christians make of this. I am also curious what the view of the skeptic/agnostic is regarding this statement.

I know if I had not experienced many “supernatural” things, there is no way I would be a Christian today.

I agree with your friend. As a former Christian, having been both Protestant and Catholic, and now an agnostic - I have gone through the process of evaluating my own experiences, including some that fall under the “supernatural” category, as well as things I’ve observed and documented phenonmenon I have learned something about - I have concluded that there are indeed unexplained happenings of various types. Therefore, I believe that there are entities/powers/energies out there. I have no idea what they are and do not feel it is possible to know with my limited human understanding. However, to make the leap from a belief in the unexplained/supernatural to the belief in the Judeo/Christian (or any all-powerful) G/god, is one I can no longer make.

I also think it is possible that the supernatural events experiences by different people throughout time in various cultures are seemingly, and logically, attritubed to something (god, spirit, etc) that is recognized by that culture. So if a Christian and, say, a Hindu experience the same phenonmena they will naturally attenot to fit that experience into their belief system. Just because they do so, however, is not proof that their assumptions are correct. Indeed, it is far from it, IMO.

 

[christcnection1]

I agree with your friend. As a former Christian, having been both Protestant and Catholic, and now an agnostic - I have gone through the process of evaluating my own experiences, including some that fall under the “supernatural” category, as well as things I’ve observed and documented phenonmenon I have learned something about - I have concluded that there are indeed unexplained happenings of various types. Therefore, I believe that there are entities/powers/energies out there. I have no idea what they are and do not feel it is possible to know with my limited human understanding. However, to make the leap from a belief in the unexplained/supernatural to the belief in the Judeo/Christian (or any all-powerful) G/god, is one I can no longer make.

I also think it is possible that the supernatural events experiences by different people throughout time in various cultures are seemingly, and logically, attritubed to something (god, spirit, etc) that is recognized by that culture. So if a Christian and, say, a Hindu experience the same phenonmena they will naturally attenot to fit that experience into their belief system. Just because they do so, however, is not proof that their assumptions are correct. Indeed, it is far from it, IMO.

Small correction… The statement made was by my friend’s professor, not my friend.

BTW… what do you think about something like the “miracle of the sun” at Fatima, as other posters have written about?

I know of several individuals, of various walks of life and at different times, who have experienced this. Essentially every event is directly related to the Blessed Virgin Mary, who always points to her son, Jesus Christ. There are many other miracles we could point to affirming a Christian worldview.

I appreciate where you are coming from and do not find your perspective difficult to accept. However, for me, it would be difficult to entirely reject miracles of this nature for a multitude of reasons. That said, if there is even a remote possibility the Christian message is true, and these “signs” even slightly point to a Christian framework, aren’t you embracing a risky worldview - one that could separate you from the God who created you?

Is it not also possible there are evil/demonic forces seeking to prevent you from coming closer, or are steering you in the wrong direction?

May yes… maybe no… right?

When most experience extraordinary things in the spirit-realm, it’s generally positive. But on occasion, the devil shows his ugly face, and I’m sure many stories could be related to you regarding this. The point is that not all in the spirit-realm is friendly or pretty. This would rightfully lead a person to conclude there is a good way and a wrong way when it comes to spirituality, just as love to contrary to hatred.

But at the end of the day, if our religion and way of life does not ultimately matter, and none of this phenomena is pointing to anything concrete, perhaps there is nothing to lose and nothing to gain, both in this world and the next.

Is it just worth the risk of losing it all? Is there any basis for which we ought to “coexist?” Yes, says the Christian. But not because it’s subjectively true: we have received revelation and objective truth from a personal God who cares.

We believe these miracles point to Jesus Christ, the one who died for us that we might live with Him for all eternity. These miracles point to God. They point to an eternal home, for all those who respond to the invitation.

 

[crowonsnow]

Oh by the way when unseeing eyes without pupils suddenly being able to see when a Priest with non healing wounds in his hands, feet, and side for 50 years makes the sign of the cross on said eyes with the wounds in his hands… I consider that equal to an amputee being healed.

cranster,

Thanks for the responses.

Bringing up amputees is the classic argument against belief in miracles, and the question has been asked by others why amputees are never healed, or why the gods simply dislike amputees enough to never heal them. I think it’s a very strong evidential argument against miracles. But in the end I think many people just want to believe these things and so there’s always been a market for this stuff.

Regards the OP, it can never be demonstrated that a particular deity or entity causes any particular event story, so that would be a matter of personal choice as well.

 

[Swan]

Small correction… The statement made was by my friend’s professor, not my friend.

BTW… what do you think about something like the “miracle of the sun” at Fatima, as other posters have written about?

I know of several individuals, of various walks of life and at different times, who have experienced this. Essentially every event is directly related to the Blessed Virgin Mary, who always points to her son, Jesus Christ. There are many other miracles we could point to affirming a Christian worldview.

I appreciate where you are coming from and do not find your perspective difficult to accept. However, for me, it would be difficult to entirely reject miracles of this nature for a multitude of reasons. That said, if there is even a remote possibility the Christian message is true, and these “signs” even slightly point to a Christian framework, aren’t you embracing a risky worldview - one that could separate you from the God who created you?

Is it not also possible there are evil/demonic forces seeking to prevent you from coming closer, or are steering you in the wrong direction?

May yes… maybe no… right?

When most experience extraordinary things in the spirit-realm, it’s generally positive. But on occasion, the devil shows his ugly face, and I’m sure many stories could be related to you regarding this. The point is that not all in the spirit-realm is friendly or pretty. This would rightfully lead a person to conclude there is a good way and a wrong way when it comes to spirituality, just as love to contrary to hatred.

But at the end of the day, if our religion and way of life does not ultimately matter, and none of this phenomena is pointing to anything concrete, perhaps there is nothing to lose and nothing to gain, both in this world and the next.

Is it just worth the risk of losing it all? Is there any basis for which we ought to “coexist?” Yes, says the Christian. But not because it’s subjectively true: we have received revelation and objective truth from a personal God who cares.

We believe these miracles point to Jesus Christ, the one who died for us that we might live with Him for all eternity. These miracles point to God. They point to an eternal home, for all those who respond to the invitation.

I think the basis of coexistance can be boiled down to a simple humanist viewpoint. We cooperate or we perish. It has nothing to do with any god - it is purely rational. I’m sure that we can both think of too many examples of murder, persecution, genocide, destruction, etc… perpetrated in the name of religion, many by Christians. If it is supposed to be unifying it has failed miserably - but that is another topic.

Now, back to the supernatural happeings - if you’re going to consider events that seem to fall into your belief system you also have to consider those that don’t. All cultures and faith systems have claims of supernatural occurrences. Does that mean they are all right? If Hindu miralces occur does that mean Shiva or one of the Hinda gods is real? What about the dark side of supernatural acitivity? Ghosts, spirits, hauntings and such? These suggest that there is more to living, dying and going up or down, depending on how you lived - a huge tenet of Christianity.

Again, as I mentioned in my previous post, I think that the human mind is designed to fit experiences into mental slots that coincide with accepted (and especially deeply held) beliefs. So that if a Christian expereinces some paranormal event, they are automatically (predisposed by our mental make up) going to do their best to fit it into their belief system (it must be from Mary, for example). This behavior will be fairly consistent across belief systems.

All of this leads me back to the fact that I just don’t know. But the evidence for me - and this is based on personal experience, observation and reason (did I mention I am a former Christian - both Prot and RC at one time or another) suggests that while there is something out there, it is not the God/gods of any of the revealed religions. Having said that, I hasten to add that I would never push this belief on anyone - it is deeply personal and we must each come to our own belief and understanding (as our capacity allows).

Peace.

 

[christcnection1]

I think the basis of coexistance can be boiled down to a simple humanist viewpoint. We cooperate or we perish. It has nothing to do with any god - it is purely rational. I’m sure that we can both think of too many examples of murder, persecution, genocide, destruction, etc… perpetrated in the name of religion, many by Christians. If it is supposed to be unifying it has failed miserably - but that is another topic.

Cooperation is rational, and necessary for coexistence. I completely agree. I just also believe that loving each other is objectively good, something you need a moral law Giver for. Even if loving neighbor meant dying - it’s still objectively good. This is what Christians ought to believe.

For every failure in Christianity there is probably ten triumphs in terms, or more, in terms of helping mankind. There are far more people like Mother Theresa than there are pedophile priests.

When it comes to unity, yes, there are have been horrific failures. But is there an institution in the history of mankind as united as the Catholic Church. It is the largest, most united, and oldest institution known to humankind.

Now, back to the supernatural happeings - if you’re going to consider events that seem to fall into your belief system you also have to consider those that don’t. All cultures and faith systems have claims of supernatural occurrences. Does that mean they are all right? If Hindu miralces occur does that mean Shiva or one of the Hinda gods is real? What about the dark side of supernatural acitivity? Ghosts, spirits, hauntings and such? These suggest that there is more to living, dying and going up or down, depending on how you lived - a huge tenet of Christianity.

If there are conflicting messages, whatever they are, both can’t be right. Both could be wrong, but both are not correct. I don’t necessarily disregard other supernatural phenomena, and neither does the Catholic Church. We don’t rule on these things unless they have been thoroughly investigated. However, I personally believe God can use supernatural events to steer a particular group of people in one direction. But we also believe there is a devil that can deceive, and use miracles to steer people down the wrong road. Many believe such will be the case with the Anti-Christ.

Again, as I mentioned in my previous post, I think that the human mind is designed to fit experiences into mental slots that coincide with accepted (and especially deeply held) beliefs. So that if a Christian expereinces some paranormal event, they are automatically (predisposed by our mental make up) going to do their best to fit it into their belief system (it must be from Mary, for example). This behavior will be fairly consistent across belief systems.

I basically agree with this statement, but this does not necessarily mitigate the reality and truth of many miracles. Neither is this necessarily a bad thing: our predisposition to look through a Christian prism could very well be true. Looking through the prism of a different worldview may have many truths, but could very well be a sack of lies. Ultimately, this comes down to faith I suppose.

And again, if there is a contradiction in the message of the “miracles” then either they are both false, one is true, or the “messenger(s)” is/are doing a poor job of getting the message across or are trying to misguide us. I don’t really see any other options.

All of this leads me back to the fact that I just don’t know. But the evidence for me - and this is based on personal experience, observation and reason (did I mention I am a former Christian - both Prot and RC at one time or another) suggests that while there is something out there, it is not the God/gods of any of the revealed religions. Having said that, I hasten to add that I would never push this belief on anyone - it is deeply personal and we must each come to our own belief and understanding (as our capacity allows).

Peace.

I do not believe, nor want to believe that supernatural phenomena experienced in this world is meant to steer us into contradictory answers and worldviews. If there is a higher truth and reality out there, and it (God) desires to let us know, then we can ascertain that there will be some kind of clear revelation. Otherwise, we have little or no basis for reality, and our deepest yearnings stench of meaninglessness. This is so far removed from what most of us want and how we view life.

I have no idea what you have been through to get to this place in your life. However, I am convinced that if you continue to sincerely seek truth in all its forms, continue to deeply love neighbor, and to follow the best morality you know how, that the God of love, Jesus Christ, will grant you pardon and peace, both now and in eternity. He would not turn away anyone who would reject Him through no fault of their own. There is an open door policy when it comes to His mercy and love.

That said, I am presuming something enormous, and beg my pardon for even asking…

Hypothetically… If somehow you knew that Jesus Christ was the true God, and there were no other gods, would you live your life for Him? (You would be justified in asking me the same thing concerning other religions.)

Peace be with you too.

 

[cranster]

cranster,

Regards the OP, it can never be demonstrated that a particular deity or entity causes any particular event story, so that would be a matter of personal choice as well.

are you saying that miracles are subjective?

The pupil expands and contracts to regulate the amount of light that reaches the the retina. The retina contains the rods and cones. Rods are responsible for night vision, and cones daytime vision, the cones also let us see in color and detail. It’s to the back of the retina that the image is projected. With out a pupil no light gets through and no image is projected.

Yet she sees, that is an objective event documented by medical doctor’s. It’s not subjective. She may be still alive and maybe willing to let you see for yourself.

Saint Pio had the stigmata for 50 years. Wounds in his hands, feet and side, and he confessed to a friend that he had one on his shoulder as well. There’s no confusing which Deity had those particular wounds. Those wounds are associated with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. It was the wound in his hand that Saint Pio placed on the blind girl, so if this event is to be attributed to anyone it is to be attributed to Jesus Christ.

I don’t see any market there. It’s something that either you choose to accept or don’t, but if you can’t accept that then I doubt whether you would be able to accept an amputee having a limb restored. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the fundamental difference between us is that you look for reason’s not to believe and we look for reasons to believe. The reason I look for reasons to believe is that my life was touched by Jesus in a way that can’t be expressed in words, in a way that gives me peace, joy, and purpose. I can’t think of any other reason to dismiss a blind women having her sight restored in the name of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t make any sense to casually dismiss something like that.

It’s not a matter of simply wanting to believe something like that. Either it happened or it didn’t. It was an event that happened and has been documented by medical doctors, It’s not an ancient mythological story but something that happened in time and space just a few decades ago.

check out this little writing on miracles by Peter Kreeft.

 

[crowonsnow]

I don’t see any market there. It’s something that either you choose to accept or don’t, but if you can’t accept that then I doubt whether you would be able to accept an amputee having a limb restored. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the fundamental difference between us is that you look for reason’s not to believe and we look for reasons to believe.

This Pio thing is no different than me going out into my garden and finding a blue tomato. What’s the point? What exactly did it accomplish? Even people who claim alien abductions have marks on their bodies.

There is ample opportunity for any of these alleged gods to truly make a difference in the human drama, and not do strange quirky questionable little parlor tricks that need volumes of apologies explaining how they could possibly have happened. These gods must be true losers if that’s the best they can do.

If I were a billionaire and genuinely cared about childhood malnutrition and starvation, I wouldn’t sneak a hamburger onto one kids plate and think I was making a difference. Miracle stories aren’t fantastic. They appear to me as simply silly and childish, right out of our desire for Disney type entertainment.

So I don’t think we’re different that way. We only differ in our expectations, and therefore for me these little stories are just unimportant. The fact that they cannot be proven or repeated only makes them more comical.

But as I said, there is a market for these things. There are lots of superstitious pilgrims out there looking for the quick fix. Lots of people make lots of money catering to this market, while the amputees are still without limbs, and the children are still dying, etc. I suppose in a way they give people hope, but it’s a hope in the validity of magic, nothing more.

 

[cranster]

This Pio thing is no different than me going out into my garden and finding a blue tomato. What’s the point? What exactly did it accomplish?

It drew many, many people to a deep and true conversion. That’s what it accomplished and that is the purpose of miracles, to draw people closer to God.

There is ample opportunity for any of these alleged gods to truly make a difference in the human drama, and not do strange quirky questionable little parlor tricks that need volumes of apologies explaining how they could possibly have happened. These gods must be true losers if that’s the best they can do.

You are correct that those gods can’t even do parlor tricks because they aren’t real, but the ONE true God, the Trinity(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is real. I know you don’t believe this but that doesn’t change what it is.

If I were a billionaire and genuinely cared about childhood malnutrition and starvation, I wouldn’t sneak a hamburger onto one kids plate and think I was making a difference. Miracle stories aren’t fantastic. They appear to me as simply silly and childish, right out of our desire for Disney type entertainment.

All you are allowing for is a God who would do what you would do, think like you think. A being that is capable of creating a universe, and human beings has to have an intellect vastly superior than our 8 pounds of gray matter could ever hope to achieve. If this being has an infinite intellect then it would logically follow that His ways would be infinitely higher than ours. One of the things He appears to require is that we seek Him, that we desire Him without seeing Him as He is. God is surely capable of opening the sky and saying peek a boo, but for reasons known only to Him He chooses not to. He seems to desire desire, and allows us to struggle our way to Him, to seek Him out. Miracles are hints that He is real and exists and are meant to cause us to search Him out.

The fact that they cannot be proven or repeated only makes them more comical.

Why would you think that you could place God in a petrie dish and treat Him as an experiment?

But as I said, there is a market for these things. There are lots of superstitious pilgrims out there looking for the quick fix. Lots of people make lots of money catering to this market, while the amputees are still without limbs, and the children are still dying, etc.

.

Why should we expect God to feed starving children when He gave us the ability to do that? If man wan’t so self obsessed and filled with greed we could easily feed the world, but unfortunately we are. There are those that heed God’s call and do get into ministries to feed the hungry.

The amputees that seek God out in this life will not be without limbs in the next, and even if an amputee were to get their limbs back I’m sure it would be treated as nothing more than an unimportant parlor trick. Would that really change the direction you are moving. Does you’re ability to believe really hinge on whether an amputee is healed. You won’t accept a blind girl getting her sight back, why would you accept an amputee getting their limbs back?

The bottom line is we will all find out sooner than we think, and hopefully won’t lay on our death bed as Bertrand Russell did, and ask, “Why didn’t you give us more evidence”. How truly frightening to enter eternity with no hope or belief and stand face to face with God. Correct me if I’m wrong but, you are placing everything you are and believe on the “possibility” that there is no God. The thought is utterly horrifying to imagine if you are wrong.

 

[cranster]

Crowonsnow I would like to apologize in advance if my tone sounds in any way aggressive, I didn’t intend it to.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Well, I see where he’s coming from here: Why do people look to a higher power when miracles happen, rather than look to themselves after achieving something extraordinary or perhaps it was nature itself!

To really ask myself “what if miracles exist?” makes me want to answer, “There would be no such thing as coincidences.”

I admire your professor’s insights very much. I can’t wait for college!

Anyways, as a Catholic, I guess it would be very thought-provoking to hear something like that. Not in an upsetting way, but a thoughtful way. I know God is responsible for many miracles, but there are sometimes when I think He just lets nature do what He made it to do.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[christcnection1]

Why would you think that you could place God in a petrie dish and treat Him as an experiment?

Unfortunately, views like this remind me of the Rich man and Lazarus story:
*
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”*

Just because someone experienced a true miracle doesn’t mean they will be open to belief. The problem is normally a moral and spiritual issue - not the lack of convincing evidence. It’s due to the suppression of the evidence, whether they are totally cognizant of it or not.

Thanks be to God that even the hardest hearts can change.

Perhaps this is why God is not the constant “miracle” worker, constantly turning stones into loaves of bread. Many will still reject Him, even with their stomachs filled and all their “needs” met.