So What if Miracles Exist?

[cranster]

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

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I know what it’s like to be there, and there are no arguments that can break through that wall. The “why won’t God heal an amputee” argument against belief in God is a red herring. I doubt that it would bring many to repentence if an amputee regained their limbs. It would just be off to the next reason not to believe. I know from experience that the more you give into sin the further away the voice of God is until you can’t hear it at all. when you reach the point that you can no longer hear the voice of God then it’s natural to give in to the greatest self deception there is, Thinking all is well. At that point the only thing that can break through is that we pray and fast for them.

 

[christcnection1]

I know what it’s like to be there, and there are no arguments that can break through that wall. The “why won’t God heal an amputee” argument against belief in God is a red herring. I doubt that it would bring many to repentence if an amputee regained their limbs. It would just be off to the next reason not to believe. I know from experience that the more you give into sin the further away the voice of God is until you can’t hear it at all. when you reach the point that you can no longer hear the voice of God then it’s natural to give in to the greatest self deception there is, Thinking all is well. At that point the only thing that can break through is that we pray and fast for them.

Thank you for the very appropriate and insightful response. It’s indeed a mystery, and you certainly can’t go wrong with prayer and fasting.

Make no mistake, I am not comparing nonbelievers with the devil himself, but we know that lucifer knew of God’s greatness, and yet he decided to rebel. That said, I do believe there are some individuals who would reject God, even if they absolutely knew of the truth.

Sorry if I sound so dismal. We have great reason for hope. Many who have been in the deepest darkness and the greatest skepticism have come to embrace the way unto eternal life. Let us not give up the fight, even when it seems impossible.

One of my best friends was the biggest atheist I knew. It’s not that he was living a horrendous life, but he had a very hard heart. He is now an Evangelical Protestant. God has clearly done wondrous changes.

My friend now acknowledges his prior resistance to Christianity was unfair; he never really gave it reasonable consideration. He can’t even p(name removed by moderator)oint why he had a hatred for religious things. I feel the same way; to this day I don’t know why I hated spiritual things in my former way of life.

Today he is a changed man. So many can change, even though it may seem impossible. Yes, let us continue, even if they think we are a little “nutty” or even if it feels uncomfortable. Let us will to love in continuing to share the message.

To the Holy Trinity be all the glory, honor, and praise!

 

[crowonsnow]

Crowonsnow I would like to apologize in advance if my tone sounds in any way aggressive, I didn’t intend it to.

No, no problem there.

It’s pretty obvious that people who subscribe to “miracle belief” are no different than people who subscribe to “movie belief.” We do these things because they have restorative value. They alter our brain chemistry. These things can be rewarding, even if we know they aren’t real. It’s simply how our brains work. Why else would people pay to go see something they know isn’t real? It’s the only reasonable explanation. Any further discussion of the subject is probably moot.

If I could be so bold I might add that perhaps I’m simply more aware of when my brain is pretending and when it isn’t. That’s not a cut by the way, just an honest observation.

Perhaps there is an anomaly between our two brains, a slight difference that allows my brain to make this distinction. Whereas we can both enjoy that ability to pretend and be rewarded for same, my brain has an additional circuit, a subroutine that brings me back to reality at a different threshold. It’s not a tremendous difference but a difference nonetheless.

 

[christcnection1]

No, no problem there.

It’s pretty obvious that people who subscribe to “miracle belief” are no different than people who subscribe to “movie belief.” We do these things because they have restorative value. They alter our brain chemistry. These things can be rewarding, even if we know they aren’t real. It’s simply how our brains work. Why else would people pay to go see something they know isn’t real? It’s the only reasonable explanation. Any further discussion of the subject is probably moot.

Although my faith often brings me great peace and joy, normally it challenges in me in ways I would rather avoid. The same can be said for most faithful followers. Carrying a cross is generally not a pleasant thing.

I do not doubt that the alteration of brain chemistry is at play, but this does not necessarily have any bearing of the truth, whatever it may be. I will also grant you that some of the same physiological and psychological realities between the excitement of movies and the excitement of miracles hold truth. However, again, that does not necessarily have any bearing on the truth, either way.

For me, I have little or no desire to follow something I do not believe is true. I would rather chase money and get loaded on drugs, as in my former life. Most of the time it was a lot of fun. God willing, I now plan on entering a formation program to become a Roman Catholic priest, an idea that largely turns me off, but only appeals to me because I believe it’s where I am called. I am a lot like my parents in so many ways, and yet both of them are agnostic.

Jesus said to Pontius Pilate that all who seek the truth come to me. Pontius Pilate, said “what is truth” and walked away, not believing there was an answer. There are many people far more intelligent and educated that the both of us, who were skeptics and did not believe in miracles, and today are faithful believers in Christ.

Even ask Wiccans, Satanists, New Agers, and people in other religions. They believe in the power of the super-world. They also believe in miracles, even though they are not on our side. Its no mystery to them that the spirit-realm is the real deal.

If I could be so bold I might add that perhaps I’m simply more aware of when my brain is pretending and when it isn’t. That’s not a cut by the way, just an honest observation.

Perhaps there is an anomaly between our two brains, a slight difference that allows my brain to make this distinction. Whereas we can both enjoy that ability to pretend and be rewarded for same, my brain has an additional circuit, a subroutine that brings me back to reality at a different threshold. It’s not a tremendous difference but a difference nonetheless.

And perhaps there is something in your mental makeup, if not your soul, that is unwilling to be open to the possibility some of these things are true. If we were talking about these things 10 years ago, I would probably be in full agreement with you. Many others who are now Catholics/Christians would have agreed with you in the past. I thought all Christians were misguided, irrational kooks, and that belief in God was some sort of mental illness.

We can agree to disagree, but it’s my prayer and hope that consider the possibility of the supernatural as you journey this life. Even if your are on your death bed, perhaps you will see that the cost/benefit in seeking God’s mercy is worth pursuing. But I hope it’s well before that my friend. There is no guarantee that we will make it through the day.

May peace and love be with you…

 

[cranster]

No, no problem there.

It’s pretty obvious that people who subscribe to “miracle belief” are no different than people who subscribe to “movie belief.” We do these things because they have restorative value. They alter our brain chemistry. These things can be rewarding, even if we know they aren’t real. It’s simply how our brains work. Why else would people pay to go see something they know isn’t real? It’s the only reasonable explanation. Any further discussion of the subject is probably moot.

If I could be so bold I might add that perhaps I’m simply more aware of when my brain is pretending and when it isn’t. That’s not a cut by the way, just an honest observation.

Perhaps there is an anomaly between our two brains, a slight difference that allows my brain to make this distinction. Whereas we can both enjoy that ability to pretend and be rewarded for same, my brain has an additional circuit, a subroutine that brings me back to reality at a different threshold. It’s not a tremendous difference but a difference nonetheless.

It’s interesting how people can come to radically different conclusions given the same evidence. For you it’s not reality which to me implies that there is a lack of using reason on the part of the person who accepts such things. I used my reason to look at the order in the universe, the mind boggling complexity especially when it concerns life. Looking at a double helix and seeing the base pairs of AGCT and that 13.5 billion years is not enough time for this thing, this unbelievably complex thing that exists inside of a living cell which taken all together, a microscopic super computer that can store, process, and distribute information on a chemical level is far, far more complex than anything man could ever dream of making using his own intelligence. Contemplating that thing arising as soon as the earth was cool enough for it to exist 3.8 billion years ago, and considering that as a chance jostling of atoms… well my reason tells me that happening by chance is a far greater miracle than it being created by guided intelligence. Couple that with the extreme fine tuning of the universe at every stage for the conditions for life to become possible here led me to conclude that an infinite intelligence is the source. I believe that source revealed itself in History and ultimately manifested itself in flesh as the Man Jesus Christ, and backed up His claim by rising from the dead. Miracles are further evidence of that reality.

Sorry, that’s a whole lotta words, but out of curiosity, if you consider a girl without pupils being given sight, not pupils, by ultimate faith in Jesus as an unimportant parlor trick. That, by the way is beyond the ability of any human to do, and is not something found in nature, then who did the parlor trick?

 

[wcknight]

To discount all miracles as meaningless is to ignore the proof that God really exists. When medical science or reqular scientist confirm the validity of a miracle as not being able to happen within the normal bounds of nature, it confirms that God has a hand in making such an event happen.

The fact that hundreds of miracle workers have been documented throughout Church history proves that God has acted in the Catholic Church throughout its history. No other faith has so much proof that God is actively working within it. There may be some isolated cases of a miracle in other religions here or there, but no other religion has such prolific miracle workers such as Padre Pio, St. Anthony, Blessed Martin De Porres, St Rose of Lima, St Catherine of Sienna, St Francis of Assisi etc, all of the Apostles, John the Baptist, Jesus Himself etc

In actuallity the Catholic Church has cornered the market on honest to goodness great miracle workers, and it has for 2000 years, and it will continue to do so for as long as humans exist.

Many have performed hundreds if not thousands of miracles. To say that they are not repeatable ignores the facts. Some miracles have been repeated and in some cases many times over. It’s true that miracles are not granted 100% of the time, but that does not negate the fact that other miracles have taken place.

Some have raised the dead. St Anthony had a corpse talk to magistrates to clear his father from a murder trial. He also stopped a man falling in mid air while he ran off to get permissin to perform the miracle. Modern day magicians would just love to do a fraction of the things that the saints have accomplished. They can’t and never will.

No other faith can point to to the fact that every saint in order to attain that stature has to have 2 verifiable validated miracles occur by their intercession and there are thousands of saints.

When St Juan Diego dropped a cloak full of roses to create the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, millions were convered as a consequence. Scientific examination of the cloak proves that the image could not have been made with anything available hundreds of years ago when the image was made. When a miracle is performed, God is telling folks that He exists.

People who witness a miracle suddenly are less hesitant to take the leap of faith when they realize that God is calling them through these supernatural events. Suddenly the miracles of the Gospel are not as unbelievable as they once suspected.

There is a huge difference between a miracle and a movie. Miracles are from God, movies are from Hollywood. Miracles are real.

 

[cranster]

To discount all miracles as meaningless is to ignore the proof that God really exists. When medical science or reqular scientist confirm the validity of a miracle as not being able to happen within the normal bounds of nature, it confirms that God has a hand in making such an event happen.

The fact that hundreds of miracle workers have been documented throughout Church history proves that God has acted in the Catholic Church throughout its history. No other faith has so much proof that God is actively working within it. There may be some isolated cases of a miracle in other religions here or there, but no other religion has such prolific miracle workers such as Padre Pio, St. Anthony, Blessed Martin De Porres, St Rose of Lima, St Catherine of Sienna, St Francis of Assisi etc, all of the Apostles, John the Baptist, Jesus Himself etc

In actuallity the Catholic Church has cornered the market on honest to goodness great miracle workers, and it has for 2000 years, and it will continue to do so for as long as humans exist.

Many have performed hundreds if not thousands of miracles. To say that they are not repeatable ignores the facts. Some miracles have been repeated and in some cases many times over. It’s true that miracles are not granted 100% of the time, but that does not negate the fact that other miracles have taken place.

Some have raised the dead. St Anthony had a corpse talk to magistrates to clear his father from a murder trial. He also stopped a man falling in mid air while he ran off to get permissin to perform the miracle. Modern day magicians would just love to do a fraction of the things that the saints have accomplished. They can’t and never will.

No other faith can point to to the fact that every saint in order to attain that stature has to have 2 verifiable validated miracles occur by their intercession and there are thousands of saints.

When St Juan Diego dropped a cloak full of roses to create the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, millions were convered as a consequence. Scientific examination of the cloak proves that the image could not have been made with anything available hundreds of years ago when the image was made. When a miracle is performed, God is telling folks that He exists.

People who witness a miracle suddenly are less hesitant to take the leap of faith when they realize that God is calling them through these supernatural events. Suddenly the miracles of the Gospel are not as unbelievable as they once suspected.

There is a huge difference between a miracle and a movie. Miracles are from God, movies are from Hollywood. Miracles are real.

Amen!

I’m still waiting for a reply to my question about a stigmatized priest (St. Pio) laying his hands on a girl without pupils gaining sight that was previously non existant because it is impossible to see without pupils. It was dismissed as an insignificant parlor trick. Since it’s out of the scope of nature and human ability to cause someone to see without pupils. Who did the Parlor trick? I have a strong feeling I won’t get an answer because without attributing it to God there is no answer.

 

[cranster]

The Catholic Church has nothing to hide and opens up miraculous events to the scientific community for investigation without restriction. It’s unreasonable to dismiss the results as dubious as I’ve seen people do. If the scientific investigation into miracles are dubious then so is any scientific investigation. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[MarcoPolo]

This was the argument from one of my friend’s professors. His perspective was essentially, “so what what if miracles exist? That doesn’t mean there is a God or a higher power.”

My thoughts on this thread. It is peculiar for a professor to argue that miracles only prove the “supernatural” and not a “higher power” because some would say they are the same. However, where I think this prof. loses sight is regarding the miracles of Christ and the divinity claimed by the One who was able to perform the supernatural, especially rising from the dead.

Another thought: typically, profs like this will argue that the thousands of martyrs who died in His name are likewise not “proof” because throughout history there have been people who died for “lies”. But first off, nothing like Christianity exists, that has spread throughout all corners of the earth like no other religion, with great miracles still performed in His name. And secondly, such an argument diffuses itself, because it is not “proof” whatsoever that the Christian martyrs died for lies just because somebody else died for a lie.

In fact, the miraculous works of Christianity and Christ and martyrs, if nothing else, is a far greater probability of having truth over mass hysteria of this magnitude if it was a lie. So the prof is making an argument based on a least likely scenario, if you ask me. Why would someone require scientific proof in order to belief something. For instance, let’s say you see me walk into a closet and close the door. The prof. would probably stake his life on me being in there if it came to that, but his line of thinking regarding miracles should give him great pause and caution that you can’t prove I’m in the closet since I’m out of observation!

Finally, I have never met someone who denied the existence of God for lack of proof, who did not believe in some other unprovable form of substitute.

 

[wcknight]

And what about the on going miracles of the incorruptible bodies of several saints ? St Padre Pio, St Bernadette, St. John Vianny, St. Rita of Casia and a few others have been perfectly presevered from the normal rot and decay of death. This only happens to Catholic saints. What other religion can even make such a claim ?

The fact that this happens to holy Catholic persons should be an indication that God does have a preference for a specific religion. It is no mere coincidence that it does not occur for folks within other faiths. People who lived their lives dedicated to God, who even while living were blessed by God in a special way are perfectly preserved with no mechanical or extraordinary means.

Some of the saints have been this way for upwards of 400 years. All have lasted many years beyond that which anyone else would have long deteriorated.

 

[christcnection1]

My thoughts on this thread. It is peculiar for a professor to argue that miracles only prove the “supernatural” and not a “higher power” because some would say they are the same.

Since I got the information second-hand, the language he may have used could be different. Perhaps he used the word “supernatural” in the way most Christians would define it, and not how he views these issues. And again, it’s possible that he did not use this word at all.

That said, I think his point was something like “so what if this mystery phenomena occurs; this does not prove the existence of a higher power to me.”

On some level I agree with him, not in the heart of his message, but his logic. Let me explain. Okay, if he denies the possibility of the universe caming into existence through a higher power, then it’s also reasonable for him to conclude that the “supernatural” or “miraculous” as it’s commonly labeled is also not from the hand of a higher power.

Let me take it from this angle: Which is more amazing, a person being raised from the dead or the existence of a person? The truth is, the person him/herself coming into existence through no higher power is more difficult to accept than someone supposedly being raised from the dead. Do you see where I am coming from?

Finally, of course I believe in miracles. To me, the supernatural helps confirm the faith I embrace, and inspires me in times of doubt. Even so, the very fact we are fearfully and wonderfully made, in a “natural” sense, is even more profound than what is deemed “supernatural.”

If “miracles” happened all the time, they would certainly lose their appeal and purpose. Perhaps this is why Jesus is not the constant miracle worker. Just because he can turn stones into bread does not mean people will choose to follow Him.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Let me take it from this angle: Which is more amazing, a person being raised from the dead or the existence of a person? The truth is, the person him/herself coming into existence through no higher power is more difficult to accept than someone supposedly being raised from the dead. Do you see where I am coming from?

I completely see where you are coming from. But then if one denies the miraculous nature of creation itself, then what he is calling miracles are not miracles. No?

 

[christcnection1]

I completely see where you are coming from. But then if one denies the miraculous nature of creation itself, then what he is calling miracles are not miracles. No?

I think he was speaking to a Christian audience to get his point across. Therefore, he used words his audience would be more familiar with. It’s possible he defined what he meant or did not mean by using certain language.

Again, I was not there, so I cannot verify exactly what he said or how he said it, though I certainly know what you mean. It would be contradictory if certain words were not qualified.