So what is the difference between a potential and an actual human being?

[Elf01]

You will please change the terminology you use when talking about decisions made regarding past pregnancies. Especially when you refer to my wife. It’s not a term I would allow you to use if we were talking face to face and I don’t expect you to use it under the anonymity of a forum.

I’m not going to not call murder what it is to spare your feelings, and I would use the same term face to face.

 

[o_mlly]

The arguments of the pro-abortionists seem to have turned from the primacy of determining the humanity of the child to the need to respect the selfishness of the mother. And the arguments sound like those of an adolescent child.

In a pre-formula world kids were abandoned absolutely all the time.
Spartans even had a little ritual for it.

Everybody else was doing it!

Parenthood is such an enormous task that it must be the dominion of the willing. Signing up to care for a human being you don’t want for at least 18 years?

It’s too hard!

I think kids that are cared for out of a sense of duty tend to be social deviants.

So, just in case this child might be one of those kind of kids, let’s murder him.

 

[Hume]

Squirm all ya want; the hard fact remains.

Parenthood should be solely the domain of the willing.

 

[o_mlly]

Squirm all ya want; the hard fact remains.

Parenthood should be solely the domain of the willing.

No, I’m like Diogenes, looking for some honest facts. And, of course you didn’t offer “hard facts” but just some more “soft feelings”.

“Domain of the willing”? Nonsense.

But to advocate abstinence does not, will not and should not “work”.

Spoken like a true adolescent hedonist. Abstinence is not fasting but the responsible pursuit of licit pleasures.

 

[o_mlly]

Oh, how I wish to be an adolescent again!

The condition is less age defined than defined by attitudes.

And “hedonism” is the pursuit of pleasure, without considering others.

Correct. The other left out of your calculus is that “throw away” child.

Live and let live is the basic principle …

Do you read what you write before posting? Yes, by all that is good, let the child live!

If you could present some rational argument for your views, people would listen.

Been there, done that several times in this thread. I’ll re-post just for you:

I think the irreligious, logical argument has been proposed.

• No one may intentionally and directly kill an innocent human being.
• In grave circumstance, we may act only with a certain conscience, e.g. knowledge of the morality of the act.
• We do not know the time of ensoulment.
• Therefore, we may not kill the child.

Are you listening?

Do you advocate that parenthood should be forced upon the unwilling ? And you are surprised that people do not listen.

You ever hear of adoption?

 

[Elf01]

To repeat: if you wish to use abstinence as the means to avoid conception, that is your prerogative. If you could provide a fully secular argument for this practice, you might get some followers. But apart from that leave everyone to use their own devices.

The argument against abortion is more don’t koll a child that has already been conceived.

 

[o_mlly]

There is no child involved at all.

And just how do you know that is true beyond a reasonable doubt? Yes, we’re still looking for a rationale from you feelers. Haven’t gotten one yet.

As soon as you include any religious criteria (like the soul), you lost the rationality.

We do not know the time of ensoulment. ?
Is that what hurts your sensitive nature? Then you may substitute the longer version:

• We know that the being can only be a human being.
• We do not know the when that being is a human being.

Forced adoption is not a solution.

Who said anything about forced?

 

[o_mlly]

But you keep avoiding the fundamental point: to have sex without conception.

Another Dodgeball player? Read the thread, junior. The fundamental point is that there is conception. I default to believe my interlocutor is intelligent until they demonstrate otherwise. Guess what?

 

[o_mlly]

Katolikuss:
Looks like we’ve picked up another birdbath splasher. For your own protection, you’re now on the No Fly List.

 

[Hume]

Spoken like a true adolescent hedonist.

@moderators?

 

[Hume]

No, I’m like Diogenes, looking for some honest facts. And, of course you didn’t offer “hard facts” but just some more “soft feelings”.

“Domain of the willing”? Nonsense.

Whose domain should it be if not the willing?

Should we be forced to have kids?

 

[Hume]

The argument against abortion is more don’t koll a child that has already been conceived.

That’s true.

But it does little to address the idea of “my body, my choice”.

 

[JimG]

I’m still thinking about the analogy with a block of marble which will gradually be transformed into a perfect statue such as the Pieta over the course of months by the work if the sculptor.

The analogy would have more relevance if, after the first chip of the chisel, the marble block then proceeded on its own initiative to complete the transformation on its own over the course of the next several months into the completed statue envisioned by the sculptor. If that were the case, destroying the marble block at any stage of the process would be a far more serious action.

But that is what happens with a newly formed human being. The process once begun will proceed to completion unless the new individual is destroyed.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

If you could provide a fully secular argument for this practice, you might get some followers.

It is cheap and effective. Also you don’t have to rely on a potentially unreliable partner for support. It’s really the smartest and most responsible option.

 

[o_mlly]

@moderators?

No, but thanks for offering.

Should we be forced to have kids?

Of course not. Are we forced to have sexual intercourse?

 

[Hume]

No, but thanks for offering.

Name-calling is banned per forum rules.

Of course not. Are we forced to have sexual intercourse?

Not at all. We consent to it.

That’s all pro-choicers are defending. The ability to consent.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

And the way to avoid traffic accidents is to stay in your house.

Those that can manage it will be better off economically, but that’s beside the point because I don’t care about contraceptives, just abortion so what happens prior is hardly relevant.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I wish to congratulate you. The best way to stop abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

That’s already been the goal of seculars so I don’t see what more can be done.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

There are 100% foolproof contraceptive and not abortifacient methods, and if the church would support them, it would make a difference. How much, it is difficult to measure.

Seculars don’t listen to the Church in the first place and religious people either do or don’t follow her teachings. So binarily, the ones that do will be abstinent and those that don’t already use it in the first place.

 

[MamaJewel]

Actually it was her parents who did the donation.

Actually, it was Eva who made the donation. Her parents, as next of kin, were allowed to speak for her wishes.

In medical ethics, and in law, there are statutes and ethical guidelines directing the donation of organs for transplantation. There are also statutes and ethical guidelines regarding an individual’s last wishes. Eva’s parents weren’t the donor, Eva was.

If the existence of a brain is not a pre-requisite for being a person, then every growing tumor would be considered a person.

I beg to differ.
Don’t take my word for it.
Here is another story of an anencephalic human being who is very much a person. Her parents nicknamed her “Pistol Annie” and she is Oklahoma’s first newborn infant organ donor.

So, now I’ve given you 2 examples of human beings without a brain who qualify as a person from a medical and societal pov.

https://www.lifeshareoklahoma.org/pistol-annie-ahern.html

In fact, please take a look at one of LifeShare’s affiliate pages and observe that it is the individual whose organs are donated who is deemed the “donor”. Those individuals are also considered heroes.

https://www.lifeshareoklahoma.org/donors.html