So what's the Catholic position on what Roeder did?

[distracted]

in case anyone missed this…

Ted Bundy was convicted of murder…

then he was transferred somewhere by the prison… or in any case was being transported somewhere…

and he escaped in hand-cuffs…

he murdered 2 more women before they caught him…

What if thye had never caught him… How many could he have killed? all women woiuld still be living in terror… (and yet, obvoiusly, ONE murder is far too many…)

in any case, as stated before, the RCC is against capital punishment (which T Bundy eventually got) only if society cannot keep such monsters behind bars for life…

apparently we in the US cannot… therefore, cap punishment would seem to be justified in at least some cases…

so why not tiller’s case? Was he - or was he NOT - a mass murderer? (in the eyes of God… don’t care what mere humans think)

 

[Prof_K]

in case anyone missed this…

Ted Bundy was convicted of murder…

then he was transferred somewhere by the prison… or in any case was being transported somewhere…

and he escaped in hand-cuffs…

he murdered 2 more women before they caught him…

What if thye had never caught him… How many could he have killed? all women woiuld still be living in terror… (and yet, obvoiusly, ONE murder is far too many…)

in any case, as stated before, the RCC is against capital punishment (which T Bundy eventually got) only if society cannot keep such monsters behind bars for life…

apparently we in the US cannot… therefore, cap punishment would seem to be justified in at least some cases…

so why not tiller’s case? Was he - or was he NOT - a mass murderer? (in the eyes of God… don’t care what mere humans think)

This is an important case, but fortunately one covered by Church teaching. According to the Catechism “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.” (2267)

There are two key points here. First, if a country cannot provide adequate means to protect itself against murders, then the death penalty can then be justified. The issue is does the Bundy case show the US is incapable and thus that we need the death penalty, or that this was just a case of poor implementation? It certainly is debatable. Second, and more germane, the authority to use such punishment clearly rests with the PUBLIC AUTHORITY. When individuals assume the right to replace legal authority, society breaks down. Thus the Church does not now, condone vigilantism with regard to abortion.

 

[distracted]

I think that this is where we fundamentally disagree. I for one can and should do more to stop abortion. . Our political parties are not logical, or ethical creations, they are practical coalitions of often contradictory groups trying to put together winning solutions.

If all so-called pro-life people consistently voted this way, much would change. Those of us who do vote consistently pro-life certainly could do more to persuade others. Yes, I am horribly troubled by the fact that innocent lives are being lost while we debate, but until the Church says violence is justified, I will focus on the other means I believe remain. My faith in Jesus suggest that if we trust in him and work harder we can end abortion without resorting to the violence which characterizes the abortion industry. Thus I share your goals. I even share your caveat that force may be justified when other methods are exhausted. I just don’t share your assessment that all non-violent means have been exhausted. If the Pope declares that to be the case, I will be one of the first to arm the barricades.

PS. According to international law a war…

i care about the laws of God… Man - made laws are worthy of my respect and adherence only when they do not egregiously contravene God’s laws…

you seem to be ignoring the fact - or are not cognizant of the fact - that abortion is murder…

we are not talking about just changing some unjust law that inconveniences peoples’ lives… or even oppresses them… We are talking about mutilation and the taking of a life - a human life, created in God’s image that is sacred in the eyes of God (and a few pro-lifers?)… we are talking about legalized torture and murder…

Roeder’s position is the only one that makes objective sense… although i myself admittedly am too cowardly to do such things… (and there are other reasons i woiuldn’t do waht he did but won’t get into that…)…

everyone just seems to want to sit around yammering about abortion ad freaking nauseum… as they sip their latte’s and wonder what the world is coming to… (although it came to it… .as was said at Nuremburg… the first time [someone] deemed a life unworthy…

someone (Roeder) finally treated abortion like the horrendous, obscene criminal, cowardly, diabolical act that it is… and all we so-called Christians can do is holler about laws being dis-obeyed and blah blah blah…

 

[distracted]

. Second, and more germane, the authority to use such punishment clearly rests with the PUBLIC AUTHORITY. When individuals assume the right to replace legal authority, society breaks down.

society breaks down…

oh that’s good…

society didn’t happen to break down when Roe v Wade was enacted???

society breaks down… yes, that’s a good one…

I’d laugh but somehow… just don’t feel like it… for some inexplicable reason…

Thus the Church does not now, condone vigilantism with regard to abortion.

put whatever words you want on it… but, for one hting… the Church does not condemn Roeder or his actions either…

again, you seem to missing the main point

ho hum…:yawn:

abortion is murder

 

[distracted]

as mentioned a few posts ago… Ted Bundy killed 2 people while on the run from the authorities… who were inept enough to let him escape… (btw i think they should have been punished somehow themselves…)

one of those killed was a young girl of (i think 9 or 10)…

what if this had been YOUR daughter???

Jesus said to love others as we love ourselves… so all aborted children ARE our children… Even better, they are US…

Even better, they are JESUS…

doesn’t look like too many people are really willing to die for Jesus…

I think they should release Roeder… Time served (for uh… the “crime” of unauthorized law enforecement…)

 

[Prof_K]

society breaks down…

oh that’s good…

society didn’t happen to break down when Roe v Wade was enacted???

society breaks down… yes, that’s a good one…

I’d laugh but somehow… just don’t feel like it… for some inexplicable reason…

put whatever words you want on it… but, for one hting… the Church does not condemn Roeder or his actions either…

again, you seem to missing the main point

ho hum…:yawn:

abortion is murder

No I don’t believe I am. I do believe abortion is murder. I do believe we are called on to do more to stop it. Among the actions I believe are meritorious are:

1. Donate money to pro-Life Causes
2. Vote consistently pro-Life
3. Picket abortion clinics
4. become a licensed foster parent and be willing to adopt “unwanted” children.
5. Lobby ones’ friends and neighbors to support pro-Life.
   etc…

The question is not who is more against abortion, but what means are morally justified to oppose it. Jesus could have called for armed resistance against the Roman occupation; he didn’t.

No the Pope has not condemned Roeder’s actions, nor have I. But in fairness the Pope has not condemned Ahamadinejad, Harry Reid, Vladimir Putin, George Bush or Barack Obama. The lack of comment cannot be construed as support. If you read your Catechism and Papal documents, the utility of violence in every circumstance is carefully proscribed. The question is whether we are morally allowed to emulate Roeder’s actions? Since you consider my arguments “yammering” I will offer no more.
God Bless
Prof K

 

[distracted]

No I don’t believe I am. I do believe abortion is murder. I do believe we are called on to do more to stop it. Among the actions I believe are meritorious are:

1. Donate money to pro-Life Causes
2. Vote consistently pro-Life
3. Picket abortion clinics
4. become a licensed foster parent and be willing to adopt “unwanted” children.
5. Lobby ones’ friends and neighbors to support pro-Life.
   etc…

The question is not who is more against abortion, but what means are morally justified to oppose it. Jesus could have called for armed resistance against the Roman occupation; he didn’t.

No the Pope has not condemned Roeder’s actions, nor have I. But in fairness the Pope has not condemned Ahamadinejad, Harry Reid, Vladimir Putin, George Bush or Barack Obama. The lack of comment cannot be construed as support. If you read your Catechism and Papal documents, the utility of violence in every circumstance is carefully proscribed. The question is whether we are morally allowed to emulate Roeder’s actions? Since you consider my arguments “yammering” I will offer no more.
God Bless
Prof K

i didn’t say YOU…

i said “everyone”

and “seems”…

but o well… seems we may have reached that proverbial impasse anyhow…

don’t feel bad, i don’t seem to have convinced anyone else on the forums of my viewpoint either…

yet i have not changed my position one bit and won’t…

if abortion is murder we should act like it is…

 

[Luke65]

i don’t like when scriptures are taken and given as a sole reason for believing in any given thing…

there are other scripture psgs and then there is the Church teachings…

In anohter passage it says that we are to obey God and not man…

and when laws are unjust it is one thing to tolerate them… and not fight them. when they are laws concserning anything but murder…

but murder of the totally innocent and helpless is the ultimate crime…

Jesus said that whatever is done to the least of his brethren is done to him… Who is more his brethren than those who have never sinned?

I don’t like when I see Catholics have a negative knee-jerk reaction to Scripture, and I saw it twice here - its not a good sign. I highlighted your knee-jerk response. I did not give Scripture as the “sole reason” for what I believe. I gave an example of when we are “to obey God and not man”. I gave an example of resisting “unjust laws”. And I gave the section of the Catechism that nicely fleshes out our civic responsibilities, and it even cited the scriptures I quoted.

My zealous soldier brother, don’t let your emotions cloud your reason. Righteous anger is good, but like with most good things, it can turn evil. Notice, there was nothing in my post that you contradicted here! I agree with every single point you made! It just shouldn’t have been directed at my post. But I do disagree with some of the other things you said. Although, personally, I won’t call Roeder a murderer. Nor is he a terrorist - Tiller fits the definition much better. But I will recommend that you read the section of the Catechism I cited. And listen to what our bishops have said about this case, giving them their due respect (you don’t have to agree with them, it is not binding). God bless.

 

[Godfollower]

i’ve read only 1/4 of this post… I’ve heard all this rationalization before… (that’s one thing i call it… )…

i’m not going to repeat my position… Roeder committed only an unauthorized act of justice (in the eyes of God, the only ones view i care about)…

You obvoiusly don’t believe abortion is really murder… probably voted for you know who…{Snip}

Try making real arguments, not ad hominem attacks.

And try reading the full post next time, too.

i suppose you would have decried Hitler being assasinated if he had been in a church…

(wasn’t in a Catholic Church, in the Real PResence… anyway)

I don’t know how Dtmccameron would react, but I would protest it. Church is for coming together to worship God, not killing each other – and that includes non-Catholic churches.

you’re obviously not pro-life…

i guess i should have directed the question at practicing Catholics and other devout christians…

Again with the ad hominem attacks. Sorry, dude; I’m a Catholic. Just because I object to murder doesn’t make me non-Christian.

godfollower??

oh how we humans tend to create God in our own image…

oh our need for strict adhereence to that most worthy of instituttions that teaches absolute truth… the RCC…

The only “creat[ing] God in our own image” going on here is your claiming that murder is justifiable. The Catholic Church condems murder – including the murder of Tiller.

If the pope were to speak out on this Tiller thing, i believe he would (seem to) dance around the issue because he would not wnt to be misunderstood (if he were to be more/less supportive of what Roeder did)… He would probably quote this part of the catechism and leave it for us to decide whether or not the criterion is met… i doubt the Church would condemn them either… In fact, i’d go so far as to say i KNOW it wouldn’t… I doubt the Church is going to make an official stand on this… again, possibly because she could be misunderstood (etc)… but then, God knows what the Church will do.

So do we: the Church has in fact condemned the murder of Tiller.

this is inconsistent with what you have said before… so i am disappointed… with you… I don’t like it when people contradict themselves…

Then don’t claim to be in favor of the Church’s teaching with respect to murder. The Church unequivocally teaches that Tiller’s murder was a grave sin.

defending - no, protecting - the innocent is NOT terrorism…

But killing Tiller – sneaking up on him with a handgun while he was in church talking to friends about taking his grandchildren to Disneyworld – was terrorism.

The question then is do the ends justify the means?

Sorry. The Church teaches quite clearly that the ends do NOT justify the means.

well maybe someone needs to revise the Catechism…

Are you kidding me?!?! The Church should change her theology just so you can feel good about murder?!?!

In law, murder is defined as killing an innocent person…

No, it isn’t. Go back and research your position. Murder is murder; it does not require that the victim be innocent. Jack Ruby was guilty of murder, even though his victim, Lee Harvey Oswald, was in turn guilty of the murder of JFK (who was himself also not innocent). A pimp who kills one of his “workers” to set an example is guilty of murder, even if the victim is a prostitute (and not “innocent”). A drug dealer who kills another drug dealer to get an advantage in a turf war is guilty of murder, even if his victim was also a murderer.

 

[Godfollower]

i care about the laws of God… Man - made laws are worthy of my respect and adherence only when they do not egregiously contravene God’s laws…

you seem to be ignoring the fact - or are not cognizant of the fact - that abortion is murder…

we are not talking about just changing some unjust law that inconveniences peoples’ lives… or even oppresses them… We are talking about mutilation and the taking of a life - a human life, created in God’s image that is sacred in the eyes of God (and a few pro-lifers?)… we are talking about legalized torture and murder…

Roeder’s position is the only one that makes objective sense… although i myself admittedly am too cowardly to do such things… (and there are other reasons i woiuldn’t do waht he did but won’t get into that…)…

everyone just seems to want to sit around yammering about abortion ad freaking nauseum… as they sip their latte’s and wonder what the world is coming to… (although it came to it… .as was said at Nuremburg… the first time [someone] deemed a life unworthy…

someone (Roeder) finally treated abortion like the horrendous, obscene criminal, cowardly, diabolical act that it is… and all we so-called Christians can do is holler about laws being dis-obeyed and blah blah blah…

The law being broken here isn’t just man’s law; it’s God’s. “Thou shalt not murder,” remember?

society breaks down…

oh that’s good…

society didn’t happen to break down when Roe v Wade was enacted???

society breaks down… yes, that’s a good one…

I’d laugh but somehow… just don’t feel like it… for some inexplicable reason…

Yes, society has broken down. Supposedly “prolife” advocates are supporting murder.

put whatever words you want on it… but, for one hting… the Church does not condemn Roeder or his actions either…

Yes, it does:

U.S. Bishops Express ‘Profound Regret’ about Shooting Death of Abortion Doctor

again, you seem to missing the main point

ho hum…:yawn:

abortion is murder

So is murder.

as mentioned a few posts ago… Ted Bundy killed 2 people while on the run from the authorities… who were inept enough to let him escape… (btw i think they should have been punished somehow themselves…)

one of those killed was a young girl of (i think 9 or 10)…

what if this had been YOUR daughter???

Jesus said to love others as we love ourselves… so all aborted children ARE our children… Even better, they are US…

Even better, they are JESUS…

doesn’t look like too many people are really willing to die for Jesus…

I think they should release Roeder… Time served (for uh… the “crime” of unauthorized law enforecement…)

What if Tiller had been your father or grandfather? What if he had been standing next to you in Church? What if Jesus asks you at the last judgment why you stopped Tiller from repenting of his crimes and becoming a prolife advocate like Dr. Nathanson? The point is, we’re only human; we don’t get to decide!

And releasing Roeder (assuming he’s guilty) would be a mistake of monumental proportion. It would encourage further vigilante justice by other people who THINK that they know what’s right.

 

[Godfollower]

Given your apparent ignorance of Church teaching, you might benefit from some relevant quotes on this subject:

“If anyone has an urge to kill someone at an abortion clinic, they should shoot me. … It’s madness. It discredits the right-to-life movement. Murder is murder. It’s madness. You cannot prevent killing by killing.”

John Cardinal O’Connor (after the 1994 murder of a Florida abortionist).

We, the four Catholic Bishops of the Dioceses of Kansas, unequivocally condemn the murder of Dr. George Tiller that occurred in Wichita earlier today. The Catholic Church believes that every human life is sacred. The murder of a human being is the gravest of crimes and is an intrinsic evil. Such an act of violence against human life is a contradiction of the most fundamental principle of the Pro-Life movement. The fact that this attack occurred in a church, a place of prayer and worship, only adds to the horror of this terrible crime. We prayerfully commend Dr. George Tiller to the mercy of God and we pray for comfort and consolation for his family and friends.

Official Statement of the Four Kansan Bishops (available here).

Fr. Frank Pavone, National Director of Priests for Life, issued the following statement upon hearing this morning of the killing of abortionist George Tiller:

“I am saddened to hear of the killing of George Tiller this morning. At this point, we do not know the motives of this act, or who is behind it, whether an angry post-abortive man or woman, or a misguided activist, or an enemy within the abortion industry, or a political enemy frustrated with the way Tiller has escaped prosecution. We should not jump to conclusions or rush to judgment.

“But whatever the motives, we at Priests for Life continue to insist on a culture in which violence is never seen as the solution to any problem. Every life has to be protected, without regard to their age or views or actions.”

Priests for Life on the murder of George Tiller (available here).

U.S. Bishops Express ‘Profound Regret’ about Shooting Death of Abortion Doctor

WASHINGTON—Speaking on behalf of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia, chairman of the bishops’ Committee on Pro-Life Activities, expressed profound regret upon learning of the shooting death of abortion doctor George Tiller.

“Our bishops’ conference and all its members have repeatedly and publicly denounced all forms of violence in our society, including abortion as well as the misguided resort to violence by anyone opposed to abortion,” Cardinal Rigali said. “Such killing is the opposite of everything we stand for, and everything we want our culture to stand for: respect for the life of each and every human being from its beginning to its natural end. We pray for Dr. Tiller and his family.”

From the USCCB (available here).

Bottom line: Tiller’s death was murder. It’s a grave, mortal sin. And, by supporting (even advocating) it, you commit the grave sin of scandal. And you help the pro-choice movement, because you let them point to arguments like yours so they can paint the entire prolife movement with the same brush. Your arguments detract from the prolife arguments. Tiller’s murder could’ve been chalked up to “just one crazy guy who went too far.” Your arguments in support of Roeder prevent that and help the pro-choice movement.

 

[distracted]

I . I highlighted your knee-jerk response.

it wasn’t knee-jerk… but whatever…

I did not give Scripture as the “sole reason” for what I believe. I gave an example of when we are “to obey God and not man”. I gave an example of resisting “unjust laws”.

i don’t recal you doing so… Could you refresh my memory? I recall only scripture… and none concerning obeying God over man…

land have now My zealous soldier brother,

I’m a female…

don’t let your emotions cloud your reason.

i don’t. I would not make a post based on emotion alone. And i will not say that i don’t struggle to come more to terms with what roeder did… because if i am not willing to do the same hting he did… well, i sometimes wonder about that… but may need to pray about / think about that particular issue more…
i basically chalk it up to cowardice… and other selfish reasons… Also, it is a VERY serious thing to send someone to his judgment…

Righteous anger is good, but like with most good things, it can turn evil.

i didn’t type anything out of anger… not sure why you accuse me of anger…??? how can you know my emotioanl state when i post things???

, personally, I won’t call Roeder a murderer. Nor is he a terrorist - Tiller fits the definition much better. But I will recommend that you read the section of the Catechism I cited. And listen to what our bishops have said about this case, giving them their due respect (you don’t have to agree with them, it is not binding). God bless.

what do the bishops say on Tiller?

 

[Godfollower]

what do the bishops say on Tiller?

They say this:

U.S. Bishops Express ‘Profound Regret’ about Shooting Death of Abortion Doctor

WASHINGTON—Speaking on behalf of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia, chairman of the bishops’ Committee on Pro-Life Activities, expressed profound regret upon learning of the shooting death of abortion doctor George Tiller.

“Our bishops’ conference and all its members have repeatedly and publicly denounced all forms of violence in our society, including abortion as well as the misguided resort to violence by anyone opposed to abortion,” Cardinal Rigali said. “Such killing is the opposite of everything we stand for, and everything we want our culture to stand for: respect for the life of each and every human being from its beginning to its natural end. We pray for Dr. Tiller and his family.”

From the USCCB site:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-121.shtml

 

[distracted]

Are you kidding me!!! The Church should change her theology just so you can feel good about murder!!!..

I’m not answering the 1st part of your post… for various reasons… mostly i just get tired of repeating myself… etc, etc
But i did not say the Church need to revise its theology, just the way it explains its theology…

No, it isn’t. Go back and research your position. Murder is murder; it does not require that the victim be innocent. Jack Ruby was guilty of murder, even though his victim, Lee Harvey Oswald, was in turn guilty of the murder of JFK (who was himself also not innocent). A pimp who kills one of his “workers” to set an example is guilty of murder, even if the victim is a prostitute (and not “innocent”). A drug dealer who kills another drug dealer to get an advantage in a turf war is guilty of murder, even if his victim was also a murderer.

if someone were to kill Hitler it woiuldn’t have been called murder…

i stand by my definitiion

 

[distracted]

Given your apparent ignorance of Church teaching, you might benefit from some relevant quotes on this subject:

i don’t respond to ad hominem…

John Cardinal O’Connor (after the 1994 murder of a Florida abortionist).

Official Statement of the Four Kansan Bishops (available here).

Priests for Life on the murder of George Tiller (available here).

From the USCCB (available here).

Bottom line: Tiller’s death was murder. It’s a grave, mortal sin. And, by supporting (even advocating) it, you commit the grave sin of scandal. And you help the pro-choice movement, because you let them point to arguments like yours so they can paint the entire prolife movement with the same brush. Your arguments detract from the prolife arguments. Tiller’s murder could’ve been chalked up to “just one crazy guy who went too far.” Your arguments in support of Roeder prevent that and help the pro-choice movement.

all they did was denounce the killing… they didn’t, as you try to imply, call it a grave, mortal sin…

and even if they did… i have a right to think for myself…

and uh… weren’t most bishops in 1964 or thereabouts… against artificial birth control and defied the pope about that??

 

[distracted]

They say this:

From the USCCB site:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-121.shtml

notice they said “misguided” violence…

properly guided “violence” may be a differnt thing… (?)

Why call it Violence to stop violence?.. the worst kind of violence, obviously, being murder…

the Old Testament says an Eye for an eye…

Did God change?

well, maybe things have changed somewhat since then, as concerns eyes and teeth…

but life?? Murder???

“He who sheds men’s blood by man shall his blood be shed”… That is what the Word says.

and Jesus said that not one jot or one tittle of the law will be changed … until the end…

it is man who changes things… God never changes…

 

[distracted]

I’ll bet you would believe in so called violence if someone was trying to “violate” you…

I’ll bet if you were in the womb and someone was trying to mutilate you… you would want someone like Roeder around…

have you ever put yourself in the place of a child being aborted?

love others as you love yourself… (Jesus)

 

[Luke65]

i don’t recal you doing so… Could you refresh my memory? I recall only scripture… and none concerning obeying God over man…

Sure:

The only exception is if a law causes you to sin, then you are not to obey that law; or if a law is unjust, you should peacefully protest against it. Here is the relevant part of the Catechism (Part V).

I’m a female…

Oops! Well, I know I was right about the “zealous soldier” part!

i don’t. I would not make a post based on emotion alone. And i will not say that i don’t struggle to come more to terms with what roeder did… because if i am not willing to do the same hting he did… well, i sometimes wonder about that… but may need to pray about / think about that particular issue more…
i basically chalk it up to cowardice… and other selfish reasons… Also, it is a VERY serious thing to send someone to his judgment…

Good, on the emotion part, and I agree with the rest of it too.

i didn’t type anything out of anger… not sure why you accuse me of anger…??? how can you know my emotioanl state when i post things???

Well, I didn’t mean to accuse you of anger (or emotion), just to warn you about it. I’m sorry that I didn’t state that better. God bless.

 

[distracted]

Sure:

Oops! Well, I know I was right about the “zealous soldier” part!

true nuff…

Well, I didn’t mean to accuse you of anger (or emotion), just to warn you about it. I’m sorry that I didn’t state that better. God bless.

oh gee… someone who admits he may have been wrong (or she )… that’s kinda novel on CAF…

anyhow… that thing about a law causing you to sin… well, there is something in the bible about… Was it St Paul?? he told the authorities: We must obey God rather than man… i need to look this up but in any case, there are times when the government is NOT what it is supposed to be (as explained in that one psg concerning how we are to obey gov’t as we would God… that gov’t is from God [which i agree, it is… and i suppose that’s one reason i recoil from the thought of doing anything like what Roeder did])

if we were talking about anything but mutilation and murder, i would agree that we should obey the gov’t… and i can’t say for sure that God … well, that He prefers that we do this thing over that thing… to stop the killing…

all i know is that God hates sin and since God is love, he particularly hates seeing his little ones mutilated and thrown into trash cans like so much junk…

When these children are being aborted, it is Jesus who is being aborted… ripped apart…

Jesus said whatever we do to the least of his brethren we do to Him… (St Mt 25;31) and He is God…

so we are killing God…

and Roeder cared about that… (far as i can tell… don’t know his heart but…)

 

[Luke65]

“He who sheds men’s blood by man shall his blood be shed”… That is what the Word says.

and Jesus said that not one jot or one tittle of the law will be changed … until the end…

it is man who changes things… God never changes…

Well, you’re right about that. That command was given to Noah and his family - the whole human race. The Noahic covenant is part of the universal law of God, as opposed to the Mosaic covenant, and is part of the New Covenant (CCC 58). But it can’t contradict obedience to government, “which God has established”.