So when and who in the Protestant beginnings threw out the saints?

[Scottish_Monk]

Personally, I read and reflect upon the lives of the Saints every day. I use the following resources:

Foley, L., & McCloskey, P. (2009). Saint of the Day: Lives, Lessons, & Feasts (6th rev. ed.). Cincinnati, OH: St. Anthony Messenger Press.

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Farmer, D. (2011). The Oxford Dictionary of Saints (5th rev. ed.). New York: Oxford University Press.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41trYr8Y5mL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01.jpg

Ellsberg, R. (1997). All Saints: Daily Reflections on Saints, Prophets, and Witnesses for Our Time. Crossroad Publishing Company.

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…Scottish Monk

 

[BrianGular]

I understand that it did in fact start in the very beginnings when people would give titles to great holy men, such as Peter and Paul. I stole this from Jimmy Akin’s site so you might see where “Saint” came from:

“…how the term “Saint” evolved. Originally it was an adjective, meaning “holy” (Latin, sanctus). People started prefixing it to the names of notably holy individuals (holy Peter, holy Paul), and eventually it came to be used as an honorific–like “Mister” or “Doctor” (thus St. Peter, St. Paul).” - jimmyakin

And, just like we put sports heroes in the Hall of Fame, why wouldn’t we do the same for saints? Why not memoralize holy men and women and their lives as examples to the rest of us? We always do far greater when we have a role model who inspires us. I don’t think the question could at all be “Why have saints?” That would be like saying “Why have Jesus?” If Jesus works in his creatures, He needs to be identified in their works, so we all might attain to holiness.

God bless!

The original autographs–at least the copies of those originals that have been found–use the Greek word, hagios, which is sometimes used as an adjective for “holy” and sometimes used as a noun to refer to those who were saved by Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Bible do we see anyone addressed as “Saint Peter” or “Saint Paul.” Some published Bibles use the word “Saint” in the titles of the books–e.g. The Gospel According to Saint John–but the word for “saint” does not appear in the ancient text. The Greek title for John’s gospel is simply, “According to John”.

I am in favor of honoring the memories of those that have gone before. God is really clear that history is very important by what he says to the Israelites in the Old Testament: Remember, remember, remember. Wouldn’t you agree that the practice of canonization goes far beyond just a “Hall of Fame” memorial? It endows those so chosen with status and abilities that most people don’t have. How and when did this process begin?

 

[yellowantphil]

My cursory understanding is that sainthood/canonization was not a part of the Church during the first centuries following Jesus Christ’s resurrection and ascension. When did it all start? Why did it all start?

Looking at the Old Catholic Encyclopedia article on Beatification and Canonization, it looks like people were declared saints either by bishops or by popular opinion more or less all the way back to the time of the first martyrs. The formal process of canonization was started in the 11th century:

We have seen that for several centuries the bishops, in some places only the primates and patriarchs, could grant to martyrs and confessors public ecclesiastical honour; such honour, however, was always decreed only for the local territory over which the grantors held jurisdiction. Still, it was only the Bishop of Rome’s acceptance of the cultus that made it universal, since he alone could permit or command in the Universal Church. Abuses, however, crept into this form of discipline, due as well to indiscretions of popular fervour as to the carelessness of some bishops in inquiring into the lives of those whom they permitted to be honoured as saints. Towards the close of the eleventh century the popes found it necessary to restrict episcopal authority on this point, and decreed that the virtues and miracles of persons proposed for public veneration should be examined in councils, more particularly in general councils.

 

[JK8619]

From my experience, individual Protestants have varying views on the saints. Some seem to view saints similarly as Catholics do, while others don’t even think about them at all. My father, who has attended Catholic and Christian science churches both, considers himself to be a Christian without any affiliation to any church. He has quite a bit of respect for many saints, Popes, and Mary. Although half of his family was catholic and he did attend mass for a time, he does not consider himself Catholic, just avid bible reading Christian.

 

[Contarini]

I wish I could wrap up the saints in gold paper with a bow on top to give to our Protestant brothers and sisters.

When/who threw out the importance of and the inspiration and history of the saints in the Protestant world? All that is left are new-age inspirations from modern authors who have little more knowledge of the truth than their readers.

Now, I know the “why” to this question, and that is strictly because all saints were devoutly Catholic in all their works, writings, and mysticism. But, I would think the lives, examples, and martyrdom of these holy people would still make the ranks of inspiration for the Protestant faith.

Anyone know when/where/who abandoned these beautiful saints for the rest of Protestantism?

Thank you, and God’s many blessings be upon you!

You’re somewhat misinformed. No one “threw out” the idea of following the examples of holy people and honoring their love of Christ. Certainly the Protestant Reformers did not. What they objected to was asking for the intercession of saints. The “Reformed” version of Protestantism was particularly strict about this.

Edwin

 

[TravisDover]

You’re somewhat misinformed. No one “threw out” the idea of following the examples of holy people and honoring their love of Christ. Certainly the Protestant Reformers did not. What they objected to was asking for the intercession of saints. The “Reformed” version of Protestantism was particularly strict about this.

Edwin

Edwin, I don’t think I am misinformed at all. Coming from a Baptist Christian past, and being an evangelical - from all my experiences - not a single person honored or cared for the saints. If you read my original post over again, you will find that I am trying to understand better the whole movement away from honoring our saints.

Typically what happens is one person will begin a church of his own, with his own ideals (i.e. anti-saint) and his ideology is passed along to others, and so forth. I am simply trying to tie some names to the history of the overall Protestant disbandment of the saints. So, Edwin, I do not believe I am misinformed, because modern Protestantism is proof of what I am alluding to (the absence of the saints), but I am trying to increase my understanding by posting this question on these forums so others can help me research who/what/where/ and why.

I know prayers to the saints were rejected during the Protestant Revolt (for nothing was “reformed”, but only thrown out), but why? Who did it? What authority was given to those who decided against prayers to the saints after 1500 years of doing so by Christs’ Church? If you can help me, please do.

God bless!

 

[Contarini]

Edwin, I don’t think I am misinformed at all. Coming from a Baptist Christian past, and being an evangelical - from all my experiences - not a single person honored or cared for the saints.

I should have distinguished more carefully between two things:

1. Honoring holy people in general, and
2. Honoring pre-Reformation (or post-Reformation Catholic/Orthodox) saints.

I can well believe that in Baptist and many other modern conservative Protestant circles people don’t talk about pre-Reformation saints. But if, for instance, you were a Southern Baptist, you presumably took part in something called the “Lottie Moon offering,” which honors a Baptist saint even if that language isn’t used. (Note to non-Baptist readers: this is a collection of money for missions taken up in honor of a famous Southern Baptist missionary.)

But I think you are talking specifically about honoring pre-Reformation Catholic saints.

In my own upbringing this was done to some extent as well–Bernard of Clairvaux was a particular favorite, for instance.

But I recognize that this wasn’t true of everyone. In fact, I remember my mother having a big argument with a fundamentalist Independent Baptist about Madame Guyon (a heterodox Catholic mystic much honored in my “Holiness” tradition), whom the Baptist insisted couldn’t have been a real Christian because she remained loyal to the Catholic Church (even though she was disciplined for her unorthodox ideas).

I know prayers to the saints were rejected during the Protestant Revolt (for nothing was “reformed”, but only thrown out), but why? Who did it? What authority was given to those who decided against prayers to the saints after 1500 years of doing so by Christs’ Church? If you can help me, please do.

I wouldn’t say there was any one figure. Luther himself saw prayer to the saints as something that would basically wither away as people gained a clearer understanding of the Gospel–if you had Jesus as your mediator, why would you need the saints? Zwingli is probably the person to name, if you need a single one, for the view that honoring the saints is idolatrous and fundamentally incompatible with Christian faith.

But the groundwork had been laid by Erasmus’ criticisms of what he saw as superstitious ways of honoring the saints. For the most part Erasmus was concerned (rightly, from an orthodox Catholic perspective) with devotion to saints that didn’t result in imitating their piety but simply treated them as the source of temporal benefits. He did not reject devotion to the saints itself. But it was easy for more radical, younger humanists, who followed Luther in defying the Catholic hierarchy and rejecting the authority of Church tradition, to take Erasmus’s critique much further than he himself had done.

This is why Erasmus’ writings were eventually put on the Index–he was (unfairly, in my opinion) blamed not so much for what he had actually said (though some of that could perhaps be seen as unorthodox) but for what others had made of it.

Edwin

 

[57Bill]

Evidence?

He did say cursory, so maybe you can help him out?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TravisDover,

I am not sure that if you were to ‘…wrap up the saints in gold paper…’ any problems would be resolved. One of the hallmarks of all Protestant groups is a rejection of one or more elements of Catholic Faith and Sacred Tradition. This ranges from Anglicans rejecting the Pope to Unitarians rejecting the Blessed Trinity. The farther they could be from Rome, the more self-righteous they thought they were - after all, Rome was the ‘whore’ that had to be avoided.

My understanding is that Protestants want to go directly to Christ - and not via some intermediary (e.g., Mary or the Saints). Additionally, some have thought that the images of the Blessed were being worshiped as idols. This mistaken belief lead to two major periods of iconoclast destructions: 8th and 16th Centuries.

God bless

I wish I could wrap up the saints in gold paper with a bow on top to give to our Protestant brothers and sisters.

When/who threw out the importance of and the inspiration and history of the saints in the Protestant world? All that is left are new-age inspirations from modern authors who have little more knowledge of the truth than their readers.

Now, I know the “why” to this question, and that is strictly because all saints were devoutly Catholic in all their works, writings, and mysticism. But, I would think the lives, examples, and martyrdom of these holy people would still make the ranks of inspiration for the Protestant faith.

Anyone know when/where/who abandoned these beautiful saints for the rest of Protestantism?

Thank you, and God’s many blessings be upon you!

 

[Aefensang]

I wish I could wrap up the saints in gold paper with a bow on top to give to our Protestant brothers and sisters.

Thankfully, you don’t have to, for most Protestants. Like much else, we have kept the saints, albeit in a different form.

When/who threw out the importance of and the inspiration and history of the saints in the Protestant world? All that is left are new-age inspirations from modern authors who have little more knowledge of the truth than their readers.

Most Protestants never did (see below). The Radicals such as Calvin, Zwingli, Menno, and the Anabaptists threw away all prayers to & commemorations of saints

This is a general pattern I notice on this board: identifying “Protestantism” with the Calvinists and radical reformers. Not every Protestant was or is a Calvinist, thanks be to God.

Now, I know the “why” to this question, and that is strictly because all saints were devoutly Catholic in all their works, writings, and mysticism. But, I would think the lives, examples, and martyrdom of these holy people would still make the ranks of inspiration for the Protestant faith.

Not sure where you get the idea that the early saints, at least, were Catholic in the Roman sense. There are statements in the so-called “unanimous consent” of the Fathers which are blatantly Protestant. Not all the saints were enamoured of the bishops of Rome.

The lives of the saintly 12 apostles were always commemorated on their days in the Anglican Kalendar, at least. The classical Lutherans kept the ancient calendar for memorials as well; just take a look at Bach’s cantatas for the liturgical year, and you will see that their calendar retained memorials of many saints. Their names never faded away, though we believe improper addresses to them had to go. It was the greatest form of respect to the dearly departed not to involve them in our prayers, for God alone is omnipresent. We do not wish to insult our brethren who won the race.

Anyone know when/where/who abandoned these beautiful saints for the rest of Protestantism?

The saints were never abandoned, at least not by the glorious, faithful Church of England. In fact, the Anglican calendar kept the ancient festival days (Apostle Thomas on Dec. 21 for example), whereas Rome has lately changed them considerably.

To answer your questions with regards to the date of having gotten rid of prayers to the saints, an Article of the Church of England is from at least 1571.

XXII. Of Purgatory.
THE Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, worshipping and adoration as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God.

It is in relation to Purgatory specifically that prayers to saints are abandoned in Anglicanism itself. If you want to see more discussion by Anglicans, please go to this thread in a new forum for all-comers: forums.anglican.net/threads/article-xxii-invocation-of-the-saints.307/

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Publisher,

I think you are correct on this.

For many, the martyrdom during the persecutions of the Roman Empire was sufficient evidence that these people are truly Friends of God. The actual method of declaring one a saint had not yet been established - and when it was, many of those who were identified as saints were in fact recognized by the Catholic Church as such.

God bless

As I understand, once the idea of venerating saints took hold, mostly it was by proclumation of the people to declare who was a “saint” and who was not.