So which Pope owned the fishery?

[Silverhand]

I have come across this anit-Catholic “urban legend” several times… always verbally, never in written form. “We eat fish on Friday because the pope (or a relative) owned a fishery.” I’m curious to know if there is any written form of this, or if anyone knows where it originates. Thanks and God bless…

 

[Magicsilence]

Peace in Christ Jesus.

We actually dont eat fish on fridays.

We abstain from meat on fridays during lent, and during the rest of the year we are required to perfrom some small act of penance on a friday to remember the passion of Our Lord.

In previous years, Catholics were required to abstain from meat on all Fridays, but it was never supposed to be a discipline that was set in stone.

I would presume that the “urban legend” about the pope with a fishery stems from a misunderstanding of what Catholics were required to do on a Friday.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Which pope? Peter himself was a fisherman.

But seriously:

I have come across this anit-Catholic “urban legend” several times… always verbally, never in written form. “We eat fish on Friday because the pope (or a relative) owned a fishery.” I’m curious to know if there is any written form of this, or if anyone knows where it originates. Thanks and God bless…

You must ask your interlocutors for their sources*, because you surely will not find a source here. You may be interested in this thread: [thread=38785] What are the origins of meat abstinence?[/thread]

(* Should anyone provide a “source”, please report it here – I would be keen to learn of it)

tee

 

[sara888]

**I eat meat on fridays, I prefer Tuna… yum

We abstain from meat on holy days or during lent.

Jan**

 

[Caesar]

Actaully this practice originates in England, not Rome.

Abstaining from meat on fridays has been a long practiced tradition. In medieval England meat was a food of the wealthy- the poor ate fish. To support the struggling fishing industry, the King ordered that fish be eaten on fridays, and the Church agreed saying that it was an act of humility.

 

[Scottgun]

Actaully this practice originates in England, not Rome.

Abstaining from meat on fridays has been a long practiced tradition. In medieval England meat was a food of the wealthy- the poor ate fish. To support the struggling fishing industry, the King ordered that fish be eaten on fridays, and the Church agreed saying that it was an act of humility.

I am willing to believe this, but do you have a source?

 

[carol_marie]

I didn’t know that a particular Pope owned a fishery??

I always thought maybe one of his enemies owned a cattle ranch?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Caesar;1518891:

Actaully this practice originates in England, not Rome.

Abstaining from meat on fridays has been a long practiced tradition. In medieval England meat was a food of the wealthy- the poor ate fish. To support the struggling fishing industry, the King ordered that fish be eaten on fridays, and the Church agreed saying that it was an act of humility.

I am willing to believe this, but do you have a source?

I’m not willing to believe this, *especially *without a source.

But if one is provided, I am willing to reconsider.

tee

 

[RyanL]

I think there are some weird ideas here, so let’s be clear and get some documentation involved…
1983 Code of Canon Law:

Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.

Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.

Can. 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.

On the Fridays outside of Lent the U.S. bishops conference obtained the permission of the Holy See for Catholics in the US to substitute a penitential, or even a charitable, practice of their own choosing. They must do some penitential/charitable practice on these Fridays.

In my experience, the easiest practice to consistently fulfill is the traditional one…to abstain from meat on all Fridays of the year.

Reference: here.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[jmcrae]

To summarize:

Normally, we are supposed to abstain from warm-blooded meat on Ash Wednesday and on all Fridays of the year. Outside of Lent, you may substitute some other form of penance on that day. This applies to everyone over the age of 14.

Also, both Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are days of fasting for persons aged 18-59, and we are also required to fast for one hour before receiving Holy Communion.

An additional FYI: If you wear the Brown Scapular, you are also requested to abstain from warm-blooded meat on all Wednesdays of the year, in addition to Fridays and Ash Wednesday.

In my experience, the easiest practice to consistently fulfill is the traditional one…to abstain from meat on all Fridays of the year.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Magicsilence]

To summarize:

Normally, we are supposed to abstain from warm-blooded meat on Ash Wednesday and on all Fridays of the year. Outside of Lent, you may substitute some other form of penance on that day. This applies to everyone over the age of 14.

Also, both Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are days of fasting for persons aged 18-59, and we are also required to fast for one hour before receiving Holy Communion.

An additional FYI:** If you wear the Brown Scapular, you are also requested to abstain from warm-blooded meat on all Wednesdays** of the year, in addition to Fridays and Ash Wednesday.

Although I trust you, do you have a source?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Actaully this practice originates in England, not Rome.

Abstaining from meat on fridays has been a long practiced tradition. In medieval England meat was a food of the wealthy- the poor ate fish. To support the struggling fishing industry, the King ordered that fish be eaten on fridays, and the Church agreed saying that it was an act of humility.

I don’t particularly question this. I can’t give the source, though I think Will Durant speaks of it, but my impression was slightly dfferent in detail, though perhaps not significantly.

My impression has been that the North Sea/North Atlantic cod industry was huge in the Middle Ages; employing thousands upon thousands of people; from fishermen to boat builders to net weavers to salters, to salt miners, to keg makers, to rivermen to teamsters to merchants. It was so well organized (largely under the Hanseatic League at its height) and so efficient that it provided a very inexpensive source of nutritious protein at a time when such wasn’t so easy for poor people to come by. It was my understanding that the Church really had some partial motivation of supporting that industry since it was the livelihood of so many. Since salt cod, in those days, was the most logical alternative if one was abstaining from meat, and since it was thought a good moral disciplinary practice for the “better off” to eat the food of poor folk at least at times, contrary to their preferences for richer fare, the Church adopted this particular practice.

Certainly, however, the Pope did not, and could never have managed, to own the cod industry, any more than the Pope today could expect to own the entire petroleum industry.

 

[jmcrae]

Although I trust you, do you have a source?

I can’t find it on line, but the paper that came with mine states that we are to pray the Little Office of the Virgin Mary every day or pray the Rosary every day, to abstain from warm-blooded meat on all Wednesdays and Fridays, and to wear it continually.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Since salt cod, in those days, was the most logical alternative if one was abstaining from meat, and since it was thought a good moral disciplinary practice for the “better off” to eat the food of poor folk at least at times, contrary to their preferences for richer fare, the Church adopted this particular practice.

I’m sorry, and while I don’t claim to be an expert on the diet of the middle ages, I must ask: If one is abstaining from meat, what makes salt cod the most logical alternative over, say, vegetables? :ehh:

To repeat: If the goal is to prop up the fishing industry, wouldn’t that be achieved more effectively by mandating the consumption of fish, rather than abstinence from meat…?

tee

 

[LilyM]

Exactly. I abstain from meat during Lent - and sometimes on Fridays as well. Doesn’t automatically make me reach for the tuna tin. I’m more likely to eat dairy, eggs, nuts, mushrooms (yumm!) or pasta with a tomato sauce.

Although fresh veggies may also have been reasonably difficult to come by for the poor (or city dwellers) in those days as well, being quite perishable.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m sorry, and while I don’t claim to be an expert on the diet of the middle ages, I must ask: If one is abstaining from meat, what makes salt cod the most logical alternative over, say, vegetables? :ehh:

To repeat: If the goal is to prop up the fishing industry, wouldn’t that be achieved more effectively by mandating the consumption of fish, rather than abstinence from meat…?

tee

I don’t write history books, I have only read a few. I couldn’t answer for the logic of it, other than to say that most people might not have been any more fond of an all-vegetable diet then than they are now, if given a choice. Also, if given a choice, some might have chosen something other than fish. It’s one thing to ask someone to give up, for a day, something he likes. It is another to ask him to eat something that, perhaps, he hates.

Then too, I don’t know that I have ever read it as being more than a likely supposition. It certainly was true that the industry supported a great number of people, and that the result was the widespread availability of cheap, nutritious food. I don’t know that anyone ever said “propping up” the industry was the only purpose, or even the primary purpose, and I doubt it was.

 

[Genesis315]

I eat meat on fridays, I prefer Tuna… yum

We abstain from meat on holy days or during lent.

Jan

You’re supposed to feast on Holy Days not be penitential!

 

[tee_eff_em]

I don’t write history books, I have only read a few. I couldn’t answer for the logic of it, other than to say that most people might not have been any more fond of an all-vegetable diet then than they are now, if given a choice. Also, if given a choice, some might have chosen something other than fish. It’s one thing to ask someone to give up, for a day, something he likes. It is another to ask him to eat something that, perhaps, he hates.

I’ve read a few too, but retain very little. Would the people/science of the time even recognize the benefit of a source of “nutritious protein”? I ask because I honestly don’t know. Even if it was folk wisdom like “Eat ye fish once a weke, lest ye build an abundance of black byle”? (NB however that would not be a recognition of fish as a substitute for red meat protein)

Similarly, I don’t know that the mercantile system was developed enough for the fishing industry to support large numbers of people as proposed. Were there boat-builders and net-weavers and such, or were fishermen more likely to craft their own supplies? Fishing surely supported many in the coastal areas, but what about the herders, farmers, hunters and other inlanders?

Then too, I don’t know that I have ever read it as being more than a likely supposition. It certainly was true that the industry supported a great number of people, and that the result was the widespread availability of cheap, nutritious food. I don’t know that anyone ever said “propping up” the industry was the only purpose, or even the primary purpose, and I doubt it was.

My apologies – But more often than not, I hear this anti-Catholic screed couched in such terms. Indeed, if a pope “owned a fishery”, as proposed in the OP, the implication is that the discipline of abstinence was imposed for the purpose of filling his purse, no?

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

For future reference: A *Straight Dope *Staff Report: Where did the Lenten fasting rules come from?

:tiphat:
tee

 

[ricko]

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

(1) Friday.
—From the dawn of Christianity, Friday has been signalized as an abstinence day, in order to do homage to the memory of Christ suffering and dying on that day of the week. The “Teaching of the Apostles” (viii), Clement of Alexandria (Strom., VI, 75), and Tertullian (De jejun., xiv) make explicit mention of this practice. Pope Nicholas I (858-867) declares that abstinence from flesh meat is enjoined on Fridays. There is every reason to conjecture that Innocent III (1198-1216) had the existence of this law in mind when he said that this obligation is suppressed as often as Christmas Day falls on Friday (De observ. jejunii, lilt. cap. ap. Layman, Theologia Moralis, I, iv, tract. viii, ii). Moreover, the way in which the custom of abstaining on Saturday originated in the Roman Church is a striking evidence of the early institution of Friday as an abstinence day.