So... who can explain original sin, salvation, and purgatory in 10 seconds or less?

[tau_gamma_pi]

I told my Lutheran friend I’d get back to him when I was finished with my paper on Othello. Answers and links appreciated.

I said Catholics believe that with the fall, we weren’t ontologically changed, more like deformed or diseased. He said Is. 64:6, which in my NAB (yes, I know, the closest thing you can get to heresy with an imprimatur) says:

There is none who calls upon your name
who rouses himself to cling to you
For you have hidden your face from us
and have delivered us up to our guilt.

But his NIV says:

All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Strange. He used his NIV to argue that we’re ontologically evil, totally depraved.

Question. Why are our translations so different?

Today he gave me Romans 3:12, which in my NAB says:

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless;
there is not one who does good,
there is not even one.

The NIV text is similar.

Question: Was I correct to say that we’re ontologically good but deformed? If not, what is true? If so, how can I prove that?

Also, purgatory. Do you know the analogy where the king invited you to a dinner, so you go, but it took you several weeks to get there and you’re smelly and grimy, and purgatory is like a shower? Anyone know where that analogy is explained more in-depth?

Question: He asked: why did Jesus need to die if all we needed was a shower?

So. What did the crucifixion do? I’ve heard “it takes away original sin” - but from everyone? from the baptized? then why do we still sin? Where can I find an article that explains the difference between “guilt” and “punishment”?

Links to articles, especially church documents, much appreciated.

Thanks all.

 

[tau_gamma_pi]

*fewer

 

[Texas_Roofer]

you’re here no there no every where

Question. Why are our translations so different?

Once the Protestants opened the door to bible changes there is a general smoothing going on

Question: Was I correct to say that we’re ontologically good but deformed? If not, what is true? If so, how can I prove that?

In the creation of man we are in God’s image.

Question: He asked: why did Jesus need to die if all we needed was a shower?

Jesus’ death teaches us to accept the world as it is while living righteously.

Purgatory is to expiate sins which we did not expiate fully on earth or repent with true sorrow. Guilt involves intent to do harm, while punishment involves an attempt to lead the wrong doer to expiate the sin. Meaning allowing him to become truly sorry for the sin

Hope that helps

 

[guanophore]

We are made in the image and likeness of God (see Genesis). God made man with free will, and man chose to sin (go against God’s commandment). The consequence of this choice is death. That death and concupiscence (tendency to turn away from God) is passed on to every human born of the race of Adam. Jesus came to pay the penalty of our sins, so that we could return to fellowship with Him. Although our sins are forgiven when we come to Him in faith, some of the effects of sin remain. Purgatory is a state in which we are purged of anything in us that is not pure, because nothing impure can enter heaven.

That is probably over the word limit.

I told my Lutheran friend I’d get back to him when I was finished with my paper on Othello. Answers and links appreciated.

I said Catholics believe that with the fall, we weren’t ontologically changed, more like deformed or diseased. He said Is. 64:6, which in my NAB (yes, I know, the closest thing you can get to heresy with an imprimatur) says:

There is none who calls upon your name
who rouses himself to cling to you
For you have hidden your face from us
and have delivered us up to our guilt.

But his NIV says:

All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Strange. He used his NIV to argue that we’re ontologically evil, totally depraved.

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless;
there is not one who does good,
there is not even one.

The NIV text is similar.

Question: Was I correct to say that we’re ontologically good but deformed? If not, what is true? If so, how can I prove that?

Going astray and falling from grace ( the fellowship with God for which we are created) in no way changes the fact that we are made in the image and likeness of God. Sin mars or wounds that nature, but does not erase it.

Also, purgatory. Do you know the analogy where the king invited you to a dinner, so you go, but it took you several weeks to get there and you’re smelly and grimy, and purgatory is like a shower? Anyone know where that analogy is explained more in-depth?

I have not heard that, but it does make sense. Another analagy is to think about a young woman who fails to maintain chastity with her boyfriend. Their sins against purity result in conception of a child. They may both go to confession, and are forgiven their sin, but the consequences remain. They still are the unwed parents of a child. They still have to deal with the consequences of their sin.

**Question:** He asked: why did Jesus need to die if all we needed was a shower?

this particular shower has eternal effects. Without the cleansing provided by Jesus’ blood, we cannot enter into the Holy of Holies.

So. What did the crucifixion do? I’ve heard “it takes away original sin” - but from everyone? from the baptized? then why do we still sin? Where can I find an article that explains the difference between “guilt” and “punishment”?

I think the catechism is the best source on these matters. Crucifixtion does not take away original sin. We know this because those who do not avail themselves of the work that Jesus did on the cross still die in their sins.

Baptism does take away original sin, but only for those who accept in the sacrament what the Church intends. We still sin after baptism because of concupiscence (the inclination of the heart to turn away from God). But after baptism, we have a new nature, and the two of them war against one another. You can read about this in Romans Chapter 7.

You have some good questions.

 

[Joe_5859]

Question. Why are our translations so different?

It’s not that the translations are so different, it’s the numbering that’s different. Look in the NAB at Isaiah 64:5:

all of us have become like unclean men,
all our good deeds are like polluted rags;
We have all withered like leaves,
and our guilt carries us away like the wind.

Much closer to the NIV than verse 6! The RSV numbering matches the NIV. 64:1 in the RSV and NIV is tacked on to the end of 63:19 in the NAB. Thus the numbering is one verse off. I’m not sure why that is, but it’s hardly a doctrinal issue.

The key word here is “like”. It’s a simile. Being like unclean men is not necessarily the same thing as being unclean men.

 

[Joe_5859]

Original Sin:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:CCC 388-412
Catholic Encyclopedia: Original Sin
The Council of Trent: Fifth Session

Salvation:
Catechism of the Catholic Church: Index on Salvation
Catholic Answers tracts: Salvation
Catholic Encyclopedia: Salvation

Purgatory:
Catechism of the Catholic Church: CCC 1030-1032
Catholic Encyclopedia: Purgatory
Catholic Answers Tracts: The Last Things

It may take more than ten seconds to go through all the links, but there are no quick easy answers to the important questions!

 

[Ignatius]

I told my Lutheran friend I’d get back to him when I was finished with my paper on Othello.

Who can explain sin, salvation and purgatory in 10 seconds.

That’s like asking, "who can explain the 8 quarters worth of calculus, quantum physics, the human genome project in 10 seconds.

Actually, it’s worse; calculus, quantum physics and the human genome are a miniscule fraction of what sin, salvation and purgatory are about. The former are finite, the latter are infinite.