your hang up on other threads is with Adam and Eve and their free will. Are you now suggesting that they were psychopaths? The psychopath has no, or verylimited free will, because of his mental illness so is hardly a good example for your persistent efforts to make God responsible for the individual and collective sins of mankind.All his acts are the result of you opening his prison cell and setting him free. You are responsible for what he did. Can you deny it?
A closer examination of your example reveals more problems. If a person releases a psychopath they may be responsible for releasing that person but NOT for the acts of the person they released as you suggest in your example. If God had the willingnessto make us all behave in a particualr way why not make everyone behave like mother theresaApologists assert that God gave us free will, and therefore God is not responsible for our free actions. As usual, they stay on the surface of the question, and this proposition sounds plausible. Of course it is totally wrong. One example will prove that they are wrong.
Suppose you have a psychopath in your custody. You know that this person has already committed some serious atrocities (murders, rapes, etc…). You also know that this person will commit more atrocities, if given half a chance. (Omniscience) You have the option to release him or not. (Creating that person) If you release him knowing full well what he will do, then you cannot “hide” behind the defense that you, personally did not do those acts, he did them out of his own volition, and you just wash your hands Pilate-style.
All his acts are the result of you opening his prison cell and setting him free. You are responsible for what he did. Can you deny it?
Exactly. What is the problem? A well-functioning “machine” is much better than an erratic one, which may or may not perform as it was supposed to function.Why is free will a “horrible blunder”? Do you think it would be better if we had been created simply as puppets with no will of our own? Granted, that would mean that we could do no evil, but it would also mean that any good we do is not ours, it is simply what we were impelled to doing. We would have no choice.
So, God “designed us, intended us” to commit rapes and murders? I don’t think that this is a Catholic doctrine.Your assumption is incorrect, we are functioning as we were designed to.
If you KNEW, really knew (not just surmised) that the child will commit murders (before he was conceived) then absolutely you would be responsible for those actions.The creator knew that we could do good or do evil. It is always our decision which to do. To use an analogy, you can raise a child to be a moral person, caring of others and productive in society. If that child grows up and abandons your teaching, are you responsible?
Yes, the decision would be whether or not it’s worth it to create sentient beings *and *include free will in the mix.Without existence there is no free will. If someone is not created, there is no way of allowing or curtailing his “free will”.
I would prefer that God would not even create those who would act against his will, if they would be created. If someone does not exist, he has no “free will”, so no free will would be violated. If someone would act freely in accordance with God’s will, there would be no need to control their freedom. So very simple, wouldn’t you agree?Would you have God prevent the actions of people that act contrary to his will?
Well said my friend !It cannot be denied.
God is implicated in all evil, most egregiously in the suffering of a soul in hell.
the only solution is that there is some greater good which is accomplished * if and only if * God makes the evil happen. I have yet to see convincing evidence of this. Souls suffering in eternal torture is a tough thing to overcome.
Then if you believe that God expecting you to follow His commands and your receiving punishment for not doing so makes him resposible for your being there then I guess you are correct.Well said my friend !
And deny others the opportunity to do his will?I would prefer that God would not even create those who would act against his will, if they would be created
I say exactly that. Dogma II.9 “God keeps all created things in existence.” Which means that God actively participates in every action we do. Without his active participation we would not be able to commit any act, be it good or bad. Remember, this is a dogma, which you cannot deny.Here is what i wrote about thosewith mental illness and responsbiility for their actions:
“People with mental illness are not free from the responsibility of their actions” Notice it says they are not free from the responsibility of their actions. This means they are held accountable no matter the reason for their behavior. You seem intent on making God responsbile and if thats the case then so be it. What are you trying to gain by making God repsonsible for everyone’s behavior.
What is the difference? The end result is the same. To kill by hand or kill by “proxy” is the same. People who do not actively participate in a terrorist attack, but who know about it, and do not report it are held exactly as guilty as the ones who actually commit it. If you release a terrorist from prison and you are fully aware of his intentions, you will be exactly as guilty as the terrorist himself.A closer examination of your example reveals more problems. If a person releases a psychopath they may be responsible for releasing that person but NOT for the acts of the person they released as you suggest in your example.
Why not, indeed? Is there anything wrong with it?If God had the willingnessto make us all behave in a particualr way why not make everyone behave like mother theresa
No God did not intend for us to commit evil. He created us for good and gave us the choice. He did not create us to be his pets.So, God “designed us, intended us” to commit rapes and murders? I don’t think that this is a Catholic doctrine.
Exactly.Then if you believe that God expecting you to follow His commands and your receiving punishment for not doing so makes him resposible for your being there then I guess you are correct.
Why would it deny anything? God would only create those who will act in accordance to his will, and NOT create those who will act contrary to his will.And deny others the opportunity to do his will?
You contradict yourself. You said before:No God did not intend for us to commit evil.
Your assumption is incorrect, we are functioning as we were designed to.
The operative word is “intend”. We are not intended for evil. Just as the car mentioned in another post is not intended for the destruction that it is capable of causing. It is intended only as a means of transportation.You contradict yourself. You said before:
So you would prefer to be a puppet rather than a creature of free will?Why would it deny anything? God would only create those who will act in accordance to his will, and NOT create those who will act contrary to his will.
According to that argument no human being should exist! Everyone who has children is guilty because they know that eventually their descendants will torture, rape and murder some one.It cannot be denied.
God is implicated in all evil, most egregiously in the suffering of a soul in hell.
the only solution is that there is some greater good which is accomplished * if and only if * God makes the evil happen. I have yet to see convincing evidence of this. Souls suffering in eternal torture is a tough thing to overcome.
God is totally sovereign over both all good and evil in all creation. The defect of the evil comes from the creature, though the defectibility, as a potency toward evil, is not an evil. The permission of this defect, and the motion towards the physicality of the evil as it is personified in an act, is from God. God is not bound to hold defectible creatures in a state of perfection, and he can allow (not cause) defectible creatures to fail for the greater good. Thus God does not will evil to be done, or will it not to be done, but wills to permit it to be done, which is good.All his acts are the result of you opening his prison cell and setting him free. You are responsible for what he did. Can you deny it?
No one is claiming free will is only good. It is neither it is free will…periodThe entire point seems to be largely lost in semantics and rhetoric. If we grant that the value of “free will” overrides any evil that results, it’s still not really clear what exactly free will “does” or why so much evil becomes necessary.
Everyone may be a sinner, but it can’t be denied that some people are a lot worse than others. Not everyone is a rapist. Not everyone is a child molester. People are not born as blank slates; even if it is a “free choice,” different people will choose different things. So, if free will is good, then the best course of action would be for God to create people that have free will, but also choose to be good. So, “free will” doesn’t really absolve God of any responsibility for evil, as he is still entirely in control; it just confuses the issue.
But, there is a way out of this, I think; perhaps, God cannot control what kind of people he will create and/or he doesn’t know what the people he creates will do, so their predisposition towards good or evil will vary randomly. So then, if “free will” overrides the evil that would be randomly generated, then it would be good for God to give people free will and allow evil to exist.
I’m not completely convinced of the value of the distinction between a complex puppet and humans with “free will” either. If we imagine a soulless zombie, a human exactly like a human with a soul, but without one, such that everything about the human, including his consciousness is physically determined, it’s not really clear what the difference is. I guess the question is, “What does the free will ‘do?’” This zombie would not have “free will,” but from his perspective, he cannot possibly tell the difference. The idea is that with “free will,” we are “free” from being automatons, but we have our physical brain and body. Doesn’t that make us automatons? At what point are we not constrained by our body?