So, who is responsible?

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Spock said:
Obviously you are not a systems programmer. (I used to be one). There is no way that any system would be “foolproof” to be able to prevent any malicious use of the platform they created. The conglomerate of millions of hackers is much smarter than the dozens of hundreds of programmers at Microsoft.

IBM has a an old system, called CICS, several decades old. It is composed of millions of lines of assembler code. Literally millions of lines. Do you even know what assembler code is? Not many people do. Even after many decades, constant debugging and updates, it still has unknown numbers of “bugs” - all of which can be exploited by hackers. Don’t try to create “analogies” which you know nothing about.
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So you are saying that microsoft is responsible for what someone did to adapt their software for malicious purposes even though they couldnt prevent it??? REALLY Spock???
 
Spock said:
Obviously you are not a systems programmer. (I used to be one). There is no way that any system would be “foolproof” to be able to prevent any malicious use of the platform they created. The conglomerate of millions of hackers is much smarter than the dozens of hundreds of programmers at Microsoft.

IBM has a an old system, called CICS, several decades old. It is composed of millions of lines of assembler code. Literally millions of lines. Do you even know what assembler code is? Not many people do. Even after many decades, constant debugging and updates, it still has unknown numbers of “bugs” - all of which can be exploited by hackers. Don’t try to create “analogies” which you know nothing about.
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Heres an example you could work with;

Does God allow or Approve?

Is the devil responsible for what he does?

October 13, 1884

Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
“I can destroy your Church.”

The gentle voice of Our Lord:
“You can? Then go ahead and do so.”

Satan:
“To do so, I need more time and more power.”

Our Lord:
"How much time? How much power?

Satan:
“75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those
who will give themselves over to my service.”

Our Lord:
“You have the time, you will have the power.
Do with them what you will.”
 
ignatius777 said:
So you are saying that when someone gives you the freedom to do as you please by virtue of the fact that they gave you that freedom they are responsible for whatever you do with it.
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Only if they have the power to prevent it.
 
Spock said:
Only if they have the power to prevent it.
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And only if they are not truly free.

You cannot have the responsibility over actions taken for another unless you compelled the actions.

Likewise you cannot have Free Will unless you are solely responsible for your actions.
 
vz71 said:
Just as the proof you are relying upon is based upon incomplete information…

Well, perhaps you should start looking at the profiles of the people you are debating with. These sorts of errors can be avoided.
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Thank you for the advice. I did, and now I know that you are a network admin. A fine and respectable job. But it is not the same as being a systems programmer. Have you ever written operating systems? I have. And I know that it is impossible to write code of that complexity without bugs. Let’s drop this nonsense, shall we?
 
ignatius777 said:
So you are saying that microsoft is responsible for what someone did to adapt their software for malicious purposes even though they couldnt prevent it??? REALLY Spock???
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No, what I said that it is impossible to prevent it. Microsoft is not God, not by a long shot.
 
You said:
October 13, 1884

Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
“I can destroy your Church.”

The gentle voice of Our Lord:
“You can? Then go ahead and do so.”

Satan:
“To do so, I need more time and more power.”

Our Lord:
"How much time? How much power?

Satan:
“75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those
who will give themselves over to my service.”

Our Lord:
“You have the time, you will have the power.
Do with them what you will.”
Click to expand...
Slightly off topic, but…
Here we are, 127 years later. Still strong.

I guess that 75 to 100 years was a bit overstated.
 
Spock said:
No, what I said that it is impossible to prevent it. Microsoft is not God, not by a long shot.
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Not according to those who sued Microsoft as a “monopoly”. The fact is that analogy shoots your arguement out of the water. You made the claim that a creator is RESPONSIBLE for the actions of others. It doesnt NEED to be God since the analogy should apply to a creator of anything or person.
 
vz71 said:
And only if they are not truly free.
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That is much better. Are we “truly” free? What is “truly” free? Can we “will” to stop hunger? To stop earthquakes? Out freedom is seriously limited, as is.
vz71 said:
You cannot have the responsibility over actions taken for another unless you compelled the actions.
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If you allow those actions and could have prevented them, then you share the responsibility. If you actively participate in those actions you also share the responsibility. If you set the whole stuff in motion it is your sole responsibility.
 
ignatius777 said:
Not according to those who sued Microsoft as a “monopoly”.
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Come on. What does “monopoly” have to do with the inevitable bugs in any sufficiently complex code?
ignatius777 said:
The fact is that analogy shoots your arguement out of the water. You made the claim that a creator is RESPONSIBLE for the actions of others. It doesnt NEED to be God since the analogy should apply to a creator of anything or person.
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Certainly. If the creator has the same power and foresight as God has. Don’t tell me that Microsoft is “God”.
 
Spock said:
That is much better. Are we “truly” free? What is “truly” free? Can we “will” to stop hunger? To stop earthquakes? Out freedom is seriously limited, as is.

If you allow those actions and could have prevented them, then you share the responsibility. If you actively participate in those actions you also share the responsibility. If you set the whole stuff in motion it is your sole responsibility.
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Can I “will” my hunger away but not put any food in my mouth? But am I free to exercise my “will” as to which food I put in my mouth? ACTION is the only thing that matters
 
Spock said:
Come on. What does “monopoly” have to do with the inevitable bugs in any sufficiently complex code?

Certainly. If the creator has the same power and foresight as God has. Don’t tell me that Microsoft is “God”.
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Spock you can do better then this. I trusted you could think more abstractly then this.
 
Spock said:
In other words if you give “too much freedom”, then you must take responsibility for doing so. 🙂
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What are you talking about??? Let me get this straight you believe that if someone gives you the complete freedom to do as you please then they are responsible for your behavior??? You cant be serious, can you??? LOL
 
Spock said:
In other words if you give “too much freedom”, then you must take responsibility for doing so. 🙂
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So you believe theres no God so therefore He cant be responsible for your behavior so then who is repsonsible for YOUR beahvior?
 
Spock said:
Obviously you are not a systems programmer. (I used to be one). There is no way that any system would be “foolproof” to be able to prevent any malicious use of the platform they created. The conglomerate of millions of hackers is much smarter than the dozens of hundreds of programmers at Microsoft.

IBM has a an old system, called CICS, several decades old. It is composed of millions of lines of assembler code. Literally millions of lines. Do you even know what assembler code is? Not many people do. Even after many decades, constant debugging and updates, it still has unknown numbers of “bugs” - all of which can be exploited by hackers. Don’t try to create “analogies” which you know nothing about.
Click to expand...
The analogy would only work if Microsoft had omniscience about how their product would be used, they were responsible for voluntarily breeding people they knew would be hackers, and every time a potential hacking act occurred someone at Microsoft had to decide whether or not to allow it.

In that case, yea, Microsoft would be fully responsible for the hacking. Now the analogy has parity.
 
mellestad said:
In that case, yea, Microsoft would be fully responsible for the hacking. Now the analogy has parity.
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In that case, yes. But that is not possible.

I will be back in about 4 days. Sorry for the unavoidable delay.
 
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