So who tempted Lucifer?

[archangel04]

So, I was really wondering this today and it has made me think really hard. We all know that sin, evil, and temptations all come from the evil one, and his demons do the work to try to make us turn away from God. According to tradition, God made Lucifer as the most beutiful angel and 2nd only to God. At this time there was no evil? There was no temtation? I mean how can there be if the “devil” has not yet chosen to be the devil. So how was Lucifer tempted to have pride and disobey God? Who or what put the influence or “thought” in Lucifer that he was worthy enough to sit on God’s throne? Then I started to think about the movie Star wars, (not a real big fan), but I realize that in the movie, Darth Vader is the evil one, but there is somone behind the curtain who is the Sith? Before Darth Vader, Ankikin Skywalker was the chosen one, who was suppose to defeat the empire, until the Sith corrupted him. So it made me think, is there a “sith” behind the devil himself? Is there something that our Lord has not mention to us?

 

[Dorothy]

So, I was really wondering this today and it has made me think really hard. We all know that sin, evil, and temptations all come from the evil one, and his demons do the work to try to make us turn away from God. According to tradition, God made Lucifer as the most beutiful angel and 2nd only to God. At this time there was no evil? There was no temtation? I mean how can there be if the “devil” has not yet chosen to be the devil. So how was Lucifer tempted to have pride and disobey God? Who or what put the influence or “thought” in Lucifer that he was worthy enough to sit on God’s throne? Then I started to think about the movie Star wars, (not a real big fan), but I realize that in the movie, Darth Vader is the evil one, but there is somone behind the curtain who is the Sith? Before Darth Vader, Ankikin Skywalker was the chosen one, who was suppose to defeat the empire, until the Sith corrupted him. So it made me think, is there a “sith” behind the devil himself? Is there something that our Lord has not mention to us?

God created the angels with intelligence and free will. They did not have to be tempted by someone else to come to a free-will decision. They were given a test, and some chose Pride…in wanting to be equal to God. Our Lord has revealed to us everything we need to know in His revelation to us.

Even humans are not always tempted by the evil spirits before they sin…there is the flesh and the world we have to contend with as well.

 

[JimG]

The temptation of Lucifer is not so much different than the temptation of Adam and Eve–even though they were tempted by him.

Lucifer, means bearer of light. Angels are by nature of a superior nature to humans. If an angel were to be shown Christ in his human nature and told, “this is my beloved Son, worship him,” it’s easy to see how the sin of pride might have crept in. ("worship a man? -never! might have been Lucifer’s thought.)

In a similar manner, Adam and Eve had all the preternatural gifts, along with an idyllic existence. Whey would they wish to throw it all away? The temptation Satan gave them is this: ‘God told you not to eat the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, on pain of death? No–you shall not die, you shall become like God, knowing good and evil.’ The temptation was to be like God–again a sin of pride, the same sin that makes us wish to disregard God’s commands today: “I’ll do it MY way, thank you.”

 

[MariaTheresa]

I have always had this question too. There is no acceptable answer that I know of. There had to be evil already existing that God created since all things were created from Him ( I know, I know, I believe God is all good) because if the angels were created without any sin in an environment without any evil or sin, completely holy, there would be no fall from heaven. Adam and Eve fell due to free will AND temptation from the presence of evil/sin. Not the situation for the angels. So either it is like I said or there is so much more information we don’t know about creation and God.

 

[Karmartia]

There are two “acceptable” answers directly above your post.

Maybe you could think about in this way: In order for us to love God without compulsion God had to create free-will. In order for free will to operate there must be some way to allow for options, so that an element of randomness was put into creation. This randomness allows for “evil” to exist and originate from the individual exercising free will. The individual in this case is Satan.

Otherwise you end up with a reductio ad absurdum spiral of who tempted who that must ultimately end with God. Since God is all-good then he cannot be the originator of evil, except indirectly, by giving us free will.

 

[archangel04]

Our Lord has revealed to us everything we need to know in His revelation to us.
QUOTE]
No doubt that our Lord as revealed everything that is required for our salvation, but He did not reveal all of the mysteries of the universe.
Karmartia;6367804:

There are two “acceptable” answers directly above your post.

Maybe you could think about in this way: In order for us to love God without compulsion God had to create free-will. In order for free will to operate there must be some way to allow for options, so that an element of randomness was put into creation. This randomness allows for “evil” to exist and originate from the individual exercising free will. The individual in this case is Satan

. This makes more sence, kind of like a mutiple choice test, you know the right answer, but the other ones cause you to have doubt and without relying on your studies it can cause you to choose the wrong answer.

Otherwise you end up with a reductio ad absurdum spiral of who tempted who that must ultimately end with God. Since God is all-good then he cannot be the originator of evil, except indirectly, by giving us free will.

 

[JimG]

I have always had this question too. There is no acceptable answer that I know of. There had to be evil already existing that God created since all things were created from Him ( I know, I know, I believe God is all good) because if the angels were created without any sin in an environment without any evil or sin, completely holy, there would be no fall from heaven. Adam and Eve fell due to free will AND temptation from the presence of evil/sin. Not the situation for the angels. So either it is like I said or there is so much more information we don’t know about creation and God.

Angels had free will, just as Adam and Eve had free will. God did not place either angels or men immediately in heaven with the beatific vision. In heaven, sin is impossible. He asked both angels and man to exercise free will in obedience to him.

The gift of personhood and free will means that both we and angels are conscious of being not just creatures but also subjects: we can use the personal pronoun: “I”. We can choose for or against God, temptation or not. Not all sin is caused by temptation from the devil. Some sin is just the result of us in our personal autonomy, saying, I’d rather do it my way than God’s way. We do it all the time.

 

[1WATCHER]

So, I was really wondering this today and it has made me think really hard. We all know that sin, evil, and temptations all come from the evil one, and his demons do the work to try to make us turn away from God. According to tradition, God made Lucifer as the most beutiful angel and 2nd only to God. At this time there was no evil? There was no temtation? I mean how can there be if the “devil” has not yet chosen to be the devil. So how was Lucifer tempted to have pride and disobey God? Who or what put the influence or “thought” in Lucifer that he was worthy enough to sit on God’s throne? Then I started to think about the movie Star wars, (not a real big fan), but I realize that in the movie, Darth Vader is the evil one, but there is somone behind the curtain who is the Sith? Before Darth Vader, Ankikin Skywalker was the chosen one, who was suppose to defeat the empire, until the Sith corrupted him. So it made me think, is there a “sith” behind the devil himself? Is there something that our Lord has not mention to us?

God, created all beings and things of this universe as we know it perfectly and it is each to our own demise when we fail to put GOD first instead of ourselves. Your question is how? regardless of the ranking of created beings and the honor in heaven they held so … lucifer failure was coveting another one of Gods creations which is Man, I’ve also been told that it was his pride I also see it as jealiously of LOVE of one of Gods other creations that are not serving the Master in heaven already could merit the Love of the Father so much it would cause lucifer to betray the Father. And when we apply the world to God, much failure of understanding will occur…

 

[Benadam]

I have always had this question too. There is no acceptable answer that I know of. There had to be evil already existing that God created since all things were created from Him ( I know, I know, I believe God is all good) because if the angels were created without any sin in an environment without any evil or sin, completely holy, there would be no fall from heaven. Adam and Eve fell due to free will AND temptation from the presence of evil/sin. Not the situation for the angels. So either it is like I said or there is so much more information we don’t know about creation and God.

No. The father of lies is the father of evil. That which lacked God was made manifest by the father of lies as it was the birth of anti-truth. Anti-God. Anti-Christ. A murderer from the beginning.

 

[Oreoracle]

Then I started to think about the movie Star wars, (not a real big fan), but I realize that in the movie, Darth Vader is the evil one, but there is somone behind the curtain who is the Sith? Before Darth Vader, Ankikin Skywalker was the chosen one, who was suppose to defeat the empire, until the Sith corrupted him.

Actually, Anakin did defeat the Empire in the end, if you recall. (He tossed The Emperor off a platform as he was killing Luke.) It was one of the best parts about the series, showing that people can always redeem themselves. It’s interesting that you use the series for your analogy, because I think Christians can learn a thing or two from Star Wars; namely, you shouldn’t count anyone out. The rebels weren’t expected to defeat the Empire, but look at what happened. The same goes for the “evil” character saving the day. When it’s all said and done, it really doesn’t matter how we categorize people, because they might change for the better or be stronger than we think.

If you truly believe in Satan, why would you withhold from him the opportunity for redemption? That doesn’t sound the least bit merciful to me, nor does it sound wise.

 

[o_mlly]

So, I was really wondering this today and it has made me think really hard. We all know that sin, evil, and temptations all come from the evil one, and his demons do the work to try to make us turn away from God. According to tradition, God made Lucifer as the most beutiful angel and 2nd only to God. At this time there was no evil? There was no temtation? I mean how can there be if the “devil” has not yet chosen to be the devil. So how was Lucifer tempted to have pride and disobey God? Who or what put the influence or “thought” in Lucifer that he was worthy enough to sit on God’s throne? … Is there something that our Lord has not mention to us?

Your thread title implies the angels were created in time since you use the past tense of the verb “tempt.” However, we believe God created the angels immortal – they had a beginning but no end. Their nature, unchangeable from their “birth,” would have been determined, it seems to me, by their own free will in a single event simultaneous with their creation.

Having no bodies and therefore no senses to inform their intellect, they must have had some sort of telepathic communication from God to inform their intellect. But it seems God initially withheld the Beatific vision pending the angels first and only act of free will – choose to serve God or not. Those who choose to serve obtained the Beatific vision and “seeeing” God, see Him forever. Those who choose themselves (pride), denied themsevles the Beatific vision, see only themselves forever.

Since the angels (and devils) are immortal, they see the effects of their choices throughout eternity. Man does not (felix culpa). Therefore, the devils irredeemably lost the Beatific vision while man did not.

 

[MariaTheresa]

Angels had free will, just as Adam and Eve had free will. God did not place either angels or men immediately in heaven with the beatific vision. In heaven, sin is impossible. He asked both angels and man to exercise free will in obedience to him.

The gift of personhood and free will means that both we and angels are conscious of being not just creatures but also subjects: we can use the personal pronoun: “I”. We can choose for or against God, temptation or not. Not all sin is caused by temptation from the devil. Some sin is just the result of us in our personal autonomy, saying, I’d rather do it my way than God’s way. We do it all the time.

Angels are in heaven with the vision of God-St Michael throws them out of heaven when they fall- but you’re right-heaven is a place where there can’t be sin-another contradiction.

When you say " Some sin is not caused by temptation…result of our personal autonomy…that’s the result of Original Sin, the sin of Adam and Eve ( and our fallen nature as a result) which goes back to being tempted by the devil + free will. this of course begs the question… where did Lucifer’s free will become contaminated with the idea or desire or inclination to sin if there was to sin or evil anywhere in the universe?

 

[tonyrey]

Angels are in heaven with the vision of God-St Michael throws them out of heaven when they fall- but you’re right-heaven is a place where there can’t be sin-another contradiction.

 

[archangel04]

So the problem as always been choice! The fact that we have the free will to choose makes us liable to our eternal destination. Since the angel had a much better intelect than we did at our creation, they only had one choice to make. Once that choice was made, that would have been the end of it. It makes more sence now, especially when the concept of free will and choice is put in the picture.

 

[Cristian_B]

Not all temptation comes from the devil. As far as I know, temptation can be categorized in exterior temptation that comes from Satan and interior temptation that comes from your own mind and desires. So it is not absolutely necessary for Satan to exist for the temptation to exist, and Lucifer is the perfect example.

 

[MariaTheresa]

“Original Sin” is a misnomer. It does not mean we are guilty on account of what our ancestors did. It means we are adversely affected by their choice of evil. We are more liable to give way to temptation because, like genetically disordered individuals, we have inherited to varying degrees character defects and above all a morally evil environment. We have only to think of the blood-stained history of the human race…

I don’t think this accurately explains the effect or original sin which Lucifer did not have. We get baptised to remove this sin from our souls. We are indeed guilty of it or we would not need baptism to remove it. This is one of the principal reasons for baptism. Lucifer did not have the stain of original sin on his soul. Original sin and living in a fallen world which is the RESULT of original sin is what creates temptation both internal and external PLUS free will. Again not the situation for the angels and lucifer. They only had free will in a completely sinless holy loving God filled perfect existence. NO source of sin or evil. Its not an explanation to say they simply had a temptation to pride because they could, the question is where would that influence come from in such an atmosphere. Just being possible is not enough is perfect holy, sinless existence. Why do people not sin when they are in heaven after they die. They don’t lose their free will. Same situation. Perfect union with God. No desire for sin.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think this accurately explains the effect or original sin which Lucifer did not have. We get baptised to remove this sin from our souls. We are indeed **guilty **of it or we would not need baptism to remove it.

“Although it is proper to each individual original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.” CCC 405

 

[archangel04]

I don’t think this accurately explains the effect or original sin which Lucifer did not have. We get baptised to remove this sin from our souls. We are indeed guilty of it or we would not need baptism to remove it. This is one of the principal reasons for baptism. Lucifer did not have the stain of original sin on his soul. Original sin and living in a fallen world which is the RESULT of original sin is what creates temptation both internal and external PLUS free will. **Again not the situation for the angels and lucifer. They only had free will in a completely sinless holy loving God filled perfect existence. NO source of sin or evil. Its not an explanation to say they simply had a temptation to pride because they could, the question is where would that influence come from in such an atmosphere. **Just being possible is not enough is perfect holy, sinless existence. Why do people not sin when they are in heaven after they die. They don’t lose their free will. Same situation. Perfect union with God. No desire for sin.

Exactly! It seems to be possible that maybe the angels existed as in a “civilazation” just like our existence? Their “end” of their world coulb be like ours that is still to come? The “end” could have been that test, and that could be where Satan began.

 

[Benadam]

The existence Lucifer was born into was a perfection not perfect . I think that’s what it means to be in a world where a choice hasn’t been made that excludes God.

 

[neisan]

So, I was really wondering this today and it has made me think really hard. We all know that sin, evil, and temptations all come from the evil one, and his demons do the work to try to make us turn away from God. According to tradition, God made Lucifer as the most beutiful angel and 2nd only to God. At this time there was no evil? There was no temtation? I mean how can there be if the “devil” has not yet chosen to be the devil. So how was Lucifer tempted to have pride and disobey God? Who or what put the influence or “thought” in Lucifer that he was worthy enough to sit on God’s throne? Then I started to think about the movie Star wars, (not a real big fan), but I realize that in the movie, Darth Vader is the evil one, but there is somone behind the curtain who is the Sith? Before Darth Vader, Ankikin Skywalker was the chosen one, who was suppose to defeat the empire, until the Sith corrupted him. So it made me think, is there a “sith” behind the devil himself? Is there something that our Lord has not mention to us?

As the others have said,he just did it himself.The idea that one day we humans would be regarded as equals to the angels,although we were like children with no inkling of the powers and things that were possible,drove him to this.He was not human and was second to God so in his pride he attempted a rebellion.However,Michael was equal to him and had greater numbers(for every demon,there are two angels apparently) plus God on his side.The idea that we would be greater was the angels’ test.We were inferior in Satan’s eyes.He was made with powers and out of light i believe.we humans were made of clay and not even aware we were naked or even what that was.