So why doesn't God write in the sky?

[AntiTheist]

It’s funny, everytime I look at the sky, especially about a half hour before dusk with all those colors swirling across the sky, I am reminded of the grandeur of God’s creation. Maybe he does write in the sky “I exist”

We understand perfectly well the causes of the sun setting and of the colors produced by it. There is nothing supernatural required for a sunset to exist.

The question posed is a good one. If this god character is actually interested in having people worship him, why on earth wouldn’t he give people sufficient evidence that he exists?

You’re going to get a lot of lame answers claiming, “The truth is out there – you just have to want to believe it first!” which obviously invalidates the idea that it’s evidence of any kind. Evidence is data that supports a claim; you don’t need to accept the claim first in order to find evidence – that’s getting the process precisely backwards.

The other lame answer is this one, given here by ProdigalSon:

God is just, but He isn’t merely just. A merely just world would be dull and lifeless. A crowd of millions of people worshipping before the throne of God would be simply a computer program, if the love of God were merely rational.

which implies that god providing evidence of his existence would somehow rob people of free will and force them to worship him.

Obviously, this is false. Within the mythology of Christianity, there is a character who has definite evidence that god exists and who chooses not to worship him: Satan (and all his rebel angels).

If tomorrow, a bunch of stars shifted position – in complete opposition to what we would expect from the laws of gravity – and spelled out, unmistakably, “God exists” in every single language on earth, then I could no longer be an atheist. Whether or not I start worshiping this god, however, is a different question. It would depend on which god it is that exists, what his attributes are, what his values are like, etc.

So again, why on earth wouldn’t this god make such a demonstration of his power? If his “plan” is just to reward the credulous who choose to believe things on the basis of insufficient evidence, like weak emotional appeals, then I’m not impressed by this god one little bit. A being who comes up with such an inept plan is certainly not a being worthy of worship.

 

[AntiTheist]

[a bunch of stuff saying, basically, “atheists won’t believe no matter what!”]

To be fair, you’re correct that a miracle, in and of itself, wouldn’t immediately prove that your god is real.

But, and I’ve said this on other threads, if for example, a whole bunch of Catholic peasants all over the world started making incredibly accurate predictions of earthquakes – where they would occur, what seismic level they would be, exactly how many people would perish in them, etc. – and all of these predictions came to pass…then it would be conclusive evidence that there is some unknown method of detecting earthquakes that is apparently only available to Catholics.

It would tell us, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that something is special about this Catholic religion. We could start looking into why this is, and it would be one heck of an incredible start toward demonstrating that your god is real.

But no religion seems to have any particular special powers. It would seem, to any fair-minded observer, that no religion is favored over another. Now, if it’s in your god’s power to do things like I outline above, why on earth wouldn’t he do them?

 

[Windfish]

I won’t answer your specific points, AntiTheist, except to say two things:

1. Christ often refused to demonstrate His power when it was asked of Him. Though he was the Son of God and walked among us, many rejected Him and put Him to death. God has His reasons, and I think there are quite moving and thoughtful “peeks” into those reasons in Scripture.
2. To the extent that we do have evidence, I think we have so much as to be certain of His existence (though “certain” from a particular standard of proof, as I explained earlier). For instance, take a look at the video I posted earlier. I am hesitant to make a definitive judgment since the additional materials and resources have not yet been delivered to my house, but certainly, if the content of the video is true, it proves the truth of Catholicism (i.e., Christianity) beyond a doubt. In any case, I am quite optimistic since 1) prestigious scientists were involved to verify the incredible miracles 2) Dr. Gomez was an atheist before he was persuaded by his investigations to settle his differences and become a (Catholic) theist.

 

[Windfish]

But no religion seems to have any particular special powers. It would seem, to any fair-minded observer, that no religion is favored over another.

This is not what I have found in my research. If I think about it, now, the only other “religion” that can compare to Catholicism in this regard is Orthodox Christianity, but even with Orthodoxy, there is a vast disparity of quality and quantity.

 

[R_Daneel]

This is not what I have found in my research. If I think about it, now, the only other “religion” that can compare to Catholicism in this regard is Orthodox Christianity, but even with Orthodoxy, there is a vast disparity of quality and quantity.

Let me offer a test. All you believers of whichever creed, choose a day and a time. Announce it, so everyone else would stay off the roads. Get into your cars, close your eyes and push the pedal to the metal. Drive for an hour, at top speed, with your eyes firmly closed. (No peeking!) At the end, examine if there is any difference in the survival of the adherents to one specific religion. That would be a very impressive test to separate the “true” God from the “false” ones. Anyone is willing to pick up this glove? … waiting… waiting… no one? I thought so. How come that no one is willing to put his money where his mouth is? Oh ye of little faith…

 

[Windfish]

Let me offer a test. All you believers of whichever creed, choose a day and a time. Announce it, so everyone else would stay off the roads. Get into your cars, close your eyes and push the pedal to the metal. Drive for an hour, at top speed, with your eyes firmly closed. (No peeking!) At the end, examine if there is any difference in the survival of the adherents to one specific religion. That would be a very impressive test to separate the “true” God from the “false” ones. Anyone is willing to pick up this glove? … waiting… waiting… no one? I thought so. How come that no one is willing to put his money where his mouth is? Oh ye of little faith…

This is idiotic. It’s a childish view of faith and prayer, so much so that it is blasphemy: “Thou shalt not put your Lord God to the test.” I would get into an accident and rightly so. In any case, why not take a look at the vast “tests” that there are. Any honest person would be more than satisfied, many atheists have been converted.

 

[R_Daneel]

This is idiotic. It’s a childish view of faith and prayer, so much so that it is blasphemy: “Thou shalt not put your Lord God to the test.” I would get into an accident and rightly so. In any case, why not take a look at the vast “tests” that there are. Any honest person would be more than satisfied, many atheists have been converted.

The oldest con-game in the world used by the snake-oil salesmen: “Trust me”. When push comes to shove, you don’t trust either - which is sensible. And then you add insult to injury by referring to some unspecified “vast” tests, which should be “allowed” (?) and which should be satisfactory. What are they? Is now God allowed to be put to test? The one and only reason why God is not allowed to be put to test is simple: because he would fail.

 

[jmcrae]

Let me offer a test. All you believers of whichever creed, choose a day and a time. Announce it, so everyone else would stay off the roads. Get into your cars, close your eyes and push the pedal to the metal. Drive for an hour, at top speed, with your eyes firmly closed. (No peeking!) At the end, examine if there is any difference in the survival of the adherents to one specific religion. That would be a very impressive test to separate the “true” God from the “false” ones. Anyone is willing to pick up this glove? … waiting… waiting… no one? I thought so. How come that no one is willing to put his money where his mouth is? Oh ye of little faith…

Since God has never been known to favour one group of people over any other group with regard to either the moral or the physical laws of the universe (Catholics who commit sin suffer the same consequences as everyone else who commits sin; the rains, the Scriptures tell us, fall on both the just and the unjust), even if it were successful, such a test would tell us nothing about the God that we believe in. Even Catholics would simply conclude that Catholics are “luckier” than other people, because God has never made any promises to us that we would be magically protected from the world around us (and such a thing would astonish the early Christian martyrs, as well - they would say, “Hey, wait a second - you’re giving them physical protection? What about us … ?” .

No. Any test that is done, would have to be conducted based on promises that God has actually made to us.

 

[jmcrae]

To be fair, you’re correct that a miracle, in and of itself, wouldn’t immediately prove that your god is real.

But, and I’ve said this on other threads, if for example, a whole bunch of Catholic peasants all over the world started making incredibly accurate predictions of earthquakes – where they would occur, what seismic level they would be, exactly how many people would perish in them, etc. – and all of these predictions came to pass…then it would be conclusive evidence that there is some unknown method of detecting earthquakes that is apparently only available to Catholics.

Where in the Word of God, whether the Scriptures or the Oral Tradition, do you find any promise that says, “Ye who believe in Me, yea, even if only half-heartedly, shall infallibly predict future events”?

Since such a promise has never been made to us, how would a test like that prove anything? No - as I said to Daneel, any tests conducted need to be conducted on the actual promises that God has given to us. Otherwise, we aren’t testing the God that we believe in, but rather, a fantasy god of our own making - who, yes, doesn’t exist - and yes, your tests would certainly fail, for that reason.

 

[jmcrae]

The one and only reason why God is not allowed to be put to test is simple: because he would fail.

And again - test Him on the promises that He has made. Not on things that He has never made any promises about, or where He has actually said, “You will suffer. You will make mistakes.”

 

[Windfish]

The oldest con-game in the world used by the snake-oil salesmen: “Trust me”. When push comes to shove, you don’t trust either - which is sensible. And then you add insult to injury by referring to some unspecified “vast” tests, which should be “allowed” (?) and which should be satisfactory. What are they? Is now God allowed to be put to test? The one and only reason why God is not allowed to be put to test is simple: because he would fail.

Again, this is a childish, idiotic, and shallow view of the nature of God, faith, and prayer.

 

[R_Daneel]

And again - test Him on the promises that He has made. Not on things that He has never made any promises about, or where He has actually said, “You will suffer. You will make mistakes.”

It is possible. “Ask and you shall receive”, and “whatever you ask in my name, you will get it”, “if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can tell that mountain, go and drop into the sea, and it will happen” - these are positive promises… how many moutains “jumped” into the sea? Precious few… maybe none?

 

[R_Daneel]

Again, this is a childish, idiotic, and shallow view of the nature of God, faith, and prayer.

I love you, too. Don’t spare me… tell me what you really think… So what are those “vast” number of tests, again?

 

[jmcrae]

It is possible. “Ask and you shall receive”, and “whatever you ask in my name, you will get it”, “if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can tell that mountain, go and drop into the sea, and it will happen” - these are positive promises… how many moutains “jumped” into the sea? Precious few… maybe none?

He never said that it would happen instantly,without a lot of digging - but yes, many mountains have been shoveled, one shovel-full at a time, into the sea, because people had faith.

 

[Windfish]

I love you, too. Don’t spare me… tell me what you really think… So what are those “vast” number of tests, again?

What do you expect me to say when you posit an absurd, dangerous “test” like driving with your eyes closed? It’s borderline a threat, and also Satanic! (i.e. I am referring to when Satan tempted Our Lord to cast Himself down from a cliff so that He could be saved by watchful angels, not that I’m comparing ourselves to the Lord.) Maybe you guys need an exorcism, not proof.

When I said “tests” earlier, I clearly put it in sarcastic quotation marks. I was referring to the astounding number of miracles in the world right now, let alone the last 2000 years. I am having trouble keeping up, and I want to contact a professional research firm to help with country/language barriers. I posted a video earlier on one such miracle, and while I’m hesitant to be definitive until I verify the data with the scientific studies, if true, the miracle proves the truth of Catholicism beyond a doubt. Others can argue on philosophical and historical grounds, and those are quite compelling, but I will fulfill this niche.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The other lame answer is this one, given here by ProdigalSon: which implies that god providing evidence of his existence would somehow rob people of free will and force them to worship him.

That’s not what I said, nor what I meant. My point was that a world with indisputable evidence of God is a world without any possibility of LOVING God. The more powerful Caesar gets, the less possibility there is of offering Caesar unconditional love. To counteract this, there must be a veil of ignorance. Furthermore, I said that a world without doubt (or testing) is a world without love. Would you like to rebut that claim?

Obviously, this is false. Within the mythology of Christianity, there is a character who has definite evidence that god exists and who chooses not to worship him: Satan (and all his rebel angels).

Angels are not capable of love, nor doubt. Hence the superiority, in one sense, of man over angel.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What does the length of the waiting have to with anything? But I agree to a certain point. If you would keep on beating your thumb with a hammer, it would feel very good when you stop it. Yet, somehow people don’t do it. So would be to starve almost to death, and then be presented with a meal. These are clearly examples of relative “good”. (Something becomes “good” because the “bad” stopped.) I do not agree that suffering first and get a relief later is preferable to be well-fed and healthy all the time. In other words “absolute” good trumps “relative” good. (We may not call it “good”, without a reference point, that is true.)

What is the reference point? If you’ve never been hungry, what good is food?

Of course we rationalize things and come up with such ideas. These rationalizations are necessary to reconcile the pain and suffering which are inexplicable when one assumes a loving God.

Criticisms and rationalizations are equally dangerous, because both practices allow absolutely any maneuver that can be carried by words. The danger in criticism is that every point of knowledge of which we are ignorant can be “glossed over” with seemingly benign assumptions. The danger of rationalization is that the “agenda” of the disputant becomes the motivating force to invent innovative stories. This is a danger of criticism, as well.

But, if we get rid of criticism and rationalization (defense), we can’t argue.

When does a belief become justified is strictly personal. The same sign may be sufficient for one and insufficient to others.

When did *that *belief become justified?

That just postpones the question. What is so wonderful about faith? Give me certainty any day so that faith would not be necessary.

And Marlowe’s Faustus wished to be “resolved of all ambiguities”. It’s an ambiguous world, my friend. Sorry.

Of course personal signs are not what the OP was all about. It asked about public signs, which cannot be chalked up to personal delusions.

And why is that? Couldn’t I be deluded in thinking that everyone else says they saw the same thing? Certainly, there are madmen who think they are Obama, and think that everyone else agrees with them too!

(I reserve comment on whether Obama himself is one.)

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

It’s funny, everytime I look at the sky, especially about a half hour before dusk with all those colors swirling across the sky, I am reminded of the grandeur of God’s creation. Maybe he does write in the sky “I exist”

We understand perfectly well the causes of the sun setting and of the colors produced by it. There is nothing supernatural required for a sunset to exist.

Are you intentionally misrepresenting me or are you merely naive? Do you really think I was saying that we don’t understand the causes of the sun setting and the causes of the colors produced by it and that it requires a supernatural explanation? Atheists can get totally lost in their simplistic reductionist view of the world, and then they say silly things like this. I guess if you hear a beautiful piece of music you explain it away; “No that’s actually *not *a moving piece from Bach, we now understand what it is, it’s actually a lot of violin strings vibrating at high frequency, causes sound waves to travel through the air moleclues which then cause vibrations in your ear drums”

 

[jmcrae]

Are you intentionally misrepresenting me or are you merely naive? Do you really think I was saying that we don’t understand the causes of the sun setting and the causes of the colors produced by it and that it requires a supernatural explanation? Atheists can get totally lost in their simplistic reductionist view of the world, and then they say silly things like this. I guess if you hear a beautiful piece of music you explain it away; “No that’s actually *not *a moving piece from Bach, we now understand what it is, it’s actually a lot of violin strings vibrating at high frequency, causes sound waves to travel through the air moleclues which then cause vibrations in your ear drums, blah blah blah”

I think the problem is that atheists think that the natural world exists by itself, without help from God. They then expect God to manifest Himself in some way outside of nature.

What they don’t understand is that it is the very fact of existence itself, which is the proof of God. That there are sunsets is proof of God. The elements that cause there to be sunsets were all created by God. The vibrations of sound in the air that result in music are all caused by things that God created. It was God who created the air, and it was God who decreed that vibrations carried through the air make sounds.

 

[John7]

why doesn’t He just tell us he exists?

He does

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tablets of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Moses saw the writing of God’s finger, not in the sky but more permanently on tablets of stone. On one of the tablets was written:

Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

I believe Moses