So why doesn't God write in the sky?

[ddarko]

I hope most of you understood what I mean by that question.

A common objection to the Christian faith is *if God loves us so much, why doesn’t He just tell us he exists? * Why doesn’t he just write in the sky “I exist?”

This is a very serious objection. If God would personally appear to us all, then it would be much easier to believe in him and follow his will.

Some will say that this, in some way, would negate free will.

But the angels knew God existed, and yet they still had a choice to rebel.

So why doesn’t God reveal to us all that he truly exists, and that Christianity is true?

Even though the Apostles suffered much for their faith, they at least had assurance that God exists. They themselves saw the Resurrected body of Jesus! So why can’t we all have this personal experience, that way there wouldn’t be any atheists? I don’t mean to sound grumpy or arrogant when I say this.

I just wish we could all have assurance like they did.

So why doesn’t God just “write in the sky”?

NOTE: This question originally popped up in my mind as an emotional response while watching a Christian vs. Atheist debate (Dinesh D’Souza v. John Loftus to be specific). While I was watching, I just thought to myself: This atheist sounds pretty sincere to me, as I’m sure most are. I felt sad for him and all of the unbelievers out there. We all want to know the truth. Why do you think God doesn’t tell us the truth in the way I described?

Hi catholic1seeks,

I think the reason God does not write in the sky is that he knows it is futile. Tell an Atheist about a miracle. He will try to give you a million ‘natural’ explanations as to how it happened. Now if all of them seem less probable, he will (rightly) tell you that the absence of a ‘natural’ explanation at the moment does not mean there isn’t one. So God’s miracles would have gone in vain. Also if he appeared to us personally, we could think we were hallucinating. If we heard a voice, we could think we were schizophrenic. Christ rose from the dead and the apostles saw and believed and preached Christianity. The existence of Christianity today is a testament of the supernatural event which was the resurrection. Yet we have disbelievers.

The truth is, God has given us ‘Reason’ and ‘Faith’ to know he exists and experience him in a way beyond our senses. By reason we see that God is a NECESSITY. Without a God, our lives are ultimately meaningless. Beauty is meaningless. Truth is meaningless and even Science’s and all knowledge is meaningless. God gives meaning to it all. If we use our reason in an unbiased manner, its easy to see. God is basically self-evident and the only reason people today lack belief is because they are too busy with obtaining temporary pleasured and meaning to even ask themselves the simple ultimate questions like why do I live? If they do, the answer is so self-evident.

Then by Faith, we build our relationship with him. We pray, and we are answered and our faith grows and so does our relationship. That is how we come to know God.

A miracle shows us the power of God and helps us to grow in faith. It does not give us Faith. That comes through reason and a free choice each of us should make. The truth is, at a certain point you realize that your existence it-self is a miracle. This whole physical world is a miracle by God and yet there are those who choose to disbelieve.

So in short, God has ‘written in the sky’. The whole physical world is his miracle that we see, live and experience every moment of our lives. He has given us a way to know him through REASON and FAITH in a way beyond any experience of the senses.

The real question is, why are atheist so ignorant and stubborn to not believe. In my experience, most sincere atheist think they are in control or that they can be in control. God has become unnecessary. Modern society has helped in sustaining this illusion. People are too busy having fun and pleasure that they never experience suffering. They hide from it. They try to think of the poor less and less etc. This is probably why a person from a poor country is more likely to believe in God than someone who grew up in rich country. The poor person knows how uncontrollable life is and that all these pleasures can be taken away from you in a whim. That being said, there are moments even these sincere atheist hit reality when things start to fall apart and they realize they have no control. Thats when they change. Even then, there are those who are just stubborn. Pride is one of the seven deadly sins that we humans unfortunately suffer from due to our fall. People do not necessarily like to follow where LOGIC leads them and are rather happy to believe what supports their belief (called confirmation bias in psychology). This applies to religious people as well. Think about all these false Christian denominations that fail to accept the fact that there is something wrong and incomplete in what they believe. So the short answer to why atheist disbelieve is their PRIDE.

God Bless

 

[DCNBILL]

Hi AntiTheist,

I think you are 1) missing a key point here and at the same time 2) answering the question asked by the OP on why God doesn’t write in the sky.

First to explain on (1), what do you think caused these people to preach that Christ rose from the dead in the midst of persecution? I can believe that one or two people would have been psychologically insane but the whole group? And I mean why preach that he rose from the dead which is something absurd at the time? Why not go for something like the Muslims do that he never died in the first place? I think the more reasonable answer to this is that it actually must have happened. So the existence of Christianity today is the best proof of the supernatural and God.

Now on (2), you say “Stories cannot demonstrate that the supernatural happened”. But everything is a story. Me writing down the observations from a microscope is a story. The only difference is that you will be willing to accept what I wrote down about a scientific observation and something that agrees with you rather than something that doesn’t. So if there was indeed something written in the sky tomorrow that “I AM GOD AND I EXIST”, you will have a million Godless explanations for how it happened and if all of them were refuted, you will simply say that absence of a Godless explanation does not mean there isn’t one. So God will do miracles when he knows it is the exact time that it can help a believer or make a unbeliever believe. Otherwise he has no need to “write in the sky” and your reply highlights the reason why

God Bless

To this excellent point one may add that many of these people and their followers were tortured and killed because of their faith and their refusal to denounce it. Now that is also some pretty strong evidence as to the truth of the matter.

 

[buffalo]

Again, in case you missed it, “I don’t know how this happened” cannot be evidence that the event had a supernatural cause.

buffalo:
I agree that something happpened – a whole bunch of people saw what looked like the sun dancing, and they were mistaken.

We’re discussing why they were mistaken. You’ve given a possible natural explanation in your post, and I’ve suggested a possible natural explanation, and there’s also the possibility that some magical being (either your god or maybe some other spiritual being, like a mischievous leprechaun) caused all these people to make a mistake.

But the real answer is that nobody knows.

They were not mistaken. They saw what they saw. They reported seeing the same thing. Healings and conversions took place. It was scheduled, that is why they assembled. I know of no natural cause.

 

[thegreypiper]

No point. The people who are now atheists or agnostics would just find some other excuse to disregard Him. And we would now be asking another question, along the lines of “Why doesn’t God do some old-fashioned smiting of the wicked?”

And after that it would be something else, and something else again. Good for God not to play that game.

PS – ddarko, I see you already made essentially the same point. Well done.

 

[buffalo]

It is not at all controversial among Biblical scholars that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are names attributed to anonymous, non-eyewitness authors. If you have such poor working knowledge of the scholarship that you do not even know this fact, then it would be pointless to discuss it further with you.

I would recommend Randel Helms’ book Who Wrote the Gospels if you wish to educate yourself further on this issue.

But as I said, it’s irrelevant. Even if you could demonstrate that the Gospels were all written the next day by eyewitnesses – something you can’t demonstrate because it’s not true – it couldn’t be evidence that supernatural things happen.

Stories cannot demonstrate that the supernatural happened.

The tradition until St Jerome was Matthew, Luke, Mark and John.

The historical critical method has been applied in modern times and there are many scholars who decided that in a vacuum they could arrive at the truth. They claim that the authors are not known. Rubbish.

While the HC method can shed additional light on the Gospels, it cannot serve to undermine the constant teaching and understanding of the Church.

Do not rely on modern scholarship alone. Research done on the Dead Sea Scrolls also support the traditional authorship.

 

[buffalo]

Stories cannot demonstrate that the supernatural happened.

Fatima - another factor that gives strength to the witness and testimony that a miracle did happen is it was predicted and scheduled.

When all of these facts are put together it makes a solid case.

Healings, conversions,sight recovered, crutches thrown down, the clothes and mud dried up, etc…

What is a natural cause for this?

In addition the family itself discouraged the children. Atheists mocked, the secular government threatened the children with boiling oil, the messages about the spread of Communism, the prophecy of a great war, telling the children that she would appear on the 13th of each month, pray the rosary, the Virgin told the children that two would not live long, Sr Lucy died on the 13th day, the reports of the secular news reporters that the sun did not remain immobile.

There are too many supporting accounts and factors to be as dismissive as you are.

Again, cite a natural explanation for the whole series of events.

As in the case of one man fulfilling 700 prophecies, go out in to the desert blindfolded and pick up on the very first try the only red grain of sand. Then do it again.

 

[tonyrey]

Of course they do. But to call that a “purposeful” action only serves to create confusion.

The confusion in your mind exists because you are constricted by your mechanistic approach. The reason you reject purpose is your backward - in more senses than one - view of reality. For you all causes are to be found in the past. Instead of looking at the whole process you confine yourself to previous events and ignore the outcome. This literally cock-eyed view inevitably deprives existence of its value, meaning and purpose. The success and power of reasoning are due to hindsight, insight and foresight. Your retrospective approach sadly leaves you without any prospects…

 

[AntiTheist]

I think more to the point is: No amount of evidence can demonstrate the supernatural to someone with an *a priori * rejection of the possibility of the supernatural. That rejection is a metaphysical position, not an empirical one.

If miracles happen – a “miracle” being understood as a suspension of the laws of nature – then it should be child’s play to demonstrate that they happen in measurable ways.

I’ve given many examples in threads of ways that you could demonstrate the supernatural. A good example would be this: if Catholic peasants all over the world started to have “revelations” of the exact place and time of the next earthquake to occur, with precise figures of damage and casualties, and an advanced knowledge of the exact measure on the seismic scale…that would be just about the most impressive demonstration ever.

It wouldn’t instantly prove that your god exists, but it would be one heck of a start. It would demonstrate beyond all reasonable doubt that an unknown method of predicting earthquakes exists and is available only to Catholics. We would know for certain that something is special about this one religion in a way that cannot be said for any other religion. We would have to look into it further, but the claims of the religion would certainly start looking like there was something behind them.

Now why on earth doesn’t your god do something like this?

Thyme:

Are all my answered prayers and all the miracles enough to prove God? Well, it depends on how many coincidences you need in order for them to be seen as proof. If I made a wish on a birthday cake for something, I would know it would just be for fun and that it would never come true.

Well, let me answer you by using your own example. What if everything you ever wished for on your birthday cake came to pass. Would that be sufficient evidence that birthday cakes have magical power?

Just about everyone has coincidences happen to them. That, along with confirmation bias goes a long way.

However, if I prayed for something, It will always be answered.

That’s one heck of a claim. How about you pray for three distant stars to suddely reverse their paths and act in ways that gravity cannot account for (while all the other stars around them continue to act in accord with gravity)? Ask for the exact coordinates of these stars and the exact time when they will begin to demonstrate this natural-law-defying behavior.

Post your prediction on here, and let’s see how correct you are. I think we should try this a few hundred times, and see how many successes we get. My money is on zero.

 

[AntiTheist]

Again, cite a natural explanation for the whole series of events.

You seem not to have been paying attention to my argument. What you are doing is called an argument from ignorance: “I don’t know how this happened, so I’m just going to accept that it’s supernatural!”

You need sufficient evidence for your claims. A bunch of kids telling ghost stories, a crowd of people mistakenly thinking that the sun is moving after they stare at it isn’t sufficient to demonstrate that supernatural things are happening.

As for “healings,” this is another great example of a miracle that you could empirically demonstrate, if it were actually real. Here’s what you do. You get a few hundred test subjects with terminal illnesses. You give one group water from Lordes; you give another group tap water; you give nothing to the third group. You don’t tell the groups or the doctors which one is getting which water.

You measure the results, and then you repeat this experiment over and over and over.

If this miracle business is actually real, we should see a statistically significant increase in the number of remissions among those people treated with the miraculous water.

So why hasn’t anyone done this yet? Go on, prove us skeptics wrong.

While the HC method can shed additional light on the Gospels, it cannot serve to undermine the constant teaching and understanding of the Church.

Translation: “The conclusions of scholarship are fine unless they call into question my preconceived notions.”

What an utter joke.

And incidentally, you haven’t addressed my claim: Stories are not sufficient evidence of the supernatural.

 

[AntiTheist]

what do you think caused these people to preach that Christ rose from the dead in the midst of persecution?

I think the people who preached the faith sincerely believed it. I also think that they were mistaken.

The best treatment of the tired old “no one would die for a lie” question is this blog post: http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-martyrs.html

It’s on the long side, but it’s an excellent treatment of the issue.

Now on (2), you say “Stories cannot demonstrate that the supernatural happened”. But everything is a story. Me writing down the observations from a microscope is a story.

Ah, equivocation, perhaps my favorite logical fallacy.

No, when I say “stories,” I mean “anecdotal accounts that are conveyed in narrative form,” as opposed to measurements and data that any independent observer can collect. Nice try, though.

So if there was indeed something written in the sky tomorrow that “I AM GOD AND I EXIST”, you will have a million Godless explanations for how it happened and if all of them were refuted, you will simply say that absence of a Godless explanation does not mean there isn’t one.

Well, if it was sky writing from a plane, obviously that has a natural explanation, but let’s assume that you mean that the stars re-align themselves (in ways that gravity cannot account for) to spell out that message (why in English, I wonder? Why not Latin?).

It would be undeniable proof that some intelligent force has the ability to manipulate the stars. It would still be an open question whether that force was your particular god (I’m sure every religion on earth would immediately say, “See? We’re right!”).

 

[abucs]

Undisputed dates in the list below are in bold type. The sequence of events concerning the Christian Community have been inserted, some tentatively, within this framework.

I pretty much agree with Buffalo’s order.

People may be interested in Richard Bauckham’s comments about what scholarship used to assume, and the new direction in which Biblical Scholarship is presently heading.

youtube.com/watch?v=292NTf1cCNw

 

[Thyme]

… if Catholic peasants all over the world started to have “revelations”…

This wouldn’t happen, because the “Catholic God” is the same God for all. The majority of miracles have been involving Christianity, but many miracle have been for non-Christians, for example, Our Lady of Guadalupe. There also seem to be apparitions where she is trying to bring the Catholics, Orthdaox and Muslims closer. For example, she gives aparitions to Catholics, but once she appeared on top of an Orthadox Church in front of many Muslims. In the apparitions at Fatima, she told the children that the Catholics, Orthadox and Muslims are all her children and that it is only humans who divide themselves.

God loves everyone, so he doesn’t only perform miracles for Catholics. He is helping those who don’t believe in Him, and who worship multiple gods. God doesn’t see us as divided groups- “There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.”. We can’t apply the rules of science or human social structures to God.

It wouldn’t instantly prove that your god exists, but it would be one heck of a start…

There are many miracles that scientists have examined and have confirmed that there is some unnatural cause for them. However, science couldn’t examine them any further because all the tests confirmed that the subjects (for example, blood from eucharistic miracles) were 100% natural, yet natural laws didn’t apply to them. After these conclusions, they were handed back to the Church

Now why on earth doesn’t your god do something like this?

Well, the biblical prophesies have been fulfilled- if you don’t believe that the manuscripts were written when they said they were, it is a scientific fact that the manuscripts found were from before these events had come. There were the prophesies of Our Lady of Fatima and there are prophesies to be fulfilled. For example, Christ told St. Faustina that before the day of judgement, would be the day of mercy (the final call to repent) and gave a description of the cross that will appear in the sky.

Thyme: Well, let me answer you by using your own example. What if everything you ever wished for on your birthday cake came to pass. Would that be sufficient evidence that birthday cakes have magical power?

If everything that I wished for on my birthday cakes came true, I would believe that this was more than just a coincidence.

Just about everyone has coincidences happen to them. That, along with confirmation bias goes a long way.

Yes, everyone has experienced coincidences, but something which even a doctor has confirmed to be impossible (like the example of my Mum’s lung instantly being healed at Lourdes) is more than a coincidence. Along with the miracles that scientists have physically examined and the 100% rate of my answered prayers, I see it as proof.

That’s one heck of a claim. How about you pray for three distant stars to suddely reverse their paths…

In the main Christian prayer, we say “Thy will be done”. We ask for something, but obviously, if it is against the will of God, he will provide us with something better He has in mind.

There is a poem that someone posted on here. If you haven’t read the Bible, it’s basically about the Jews wanting more-and-more proof after each miracle. .
Jesus, I am overjoyed to meet you face to face.
You’ve been getting quite a name all around the place.
Healing cripples, raising from the dead.
And now I understand you’re God,
At least, that’s what you’ve said.

So, you are the Christ, you’re the great Jesus Christ.
Prove to me that you’re divine; change my water into wine.
That’s all you need do, then I’ll know it’s all true.
Come on, King of the Jews.

Jesus, you just won’t believe the hit you’ve made around here.
You are all we talk about, the wonder of the year.
Oh what a pity if it’s all a lie.
Still, I’m sure that you can rock the cynics if you tried.

So, you are the Christ, you’re the great Jesus Christ.
Prove to me that you’re no fool; walk across my swimming pool.
If you do that for me, then I’ll let you go free.
Come on, King of the Jews.

I only ask what I’d ask any superstar.
What is it that you have got that puts you where you are.
I am waiting, yes I’m a captive fan.
I’m dying to be shown that you are not just any man.

So, if you are the Christ, yes the great Jesus Christ
Feed my household with this bread.
You can do it on your head.
Or has something gone wrong. Jesus, why do you take so long?
Oh come on, King of the Jews.

Hey! Aren’t you scared of me Christ?
Mr. Wonderful Christ?
You’re a joke. You’re not the Lord.
You are nothing but a fraud.
Take him away.
He’s got nothing to say!
Get out you King of the,
Get out King of the,
Oh get out you King of the Jews!
Get out of here!
Get out of here you,
Get out of my life.

Post your prediction on here, and let’s see how correct you are. I think we should try this a few hundred times, and see how many successes we get. My money is on zero.

This is the understanding of a scientific god- if that makes sense. It’s like expecting art to solve a maths problem and then telling people that art doesn’t exist because it has no mathematical rules.

 

[buffalo]

You seem not to have been paying attention to my argument. What you are doing is called an argument from ignorance: “I don’t know how this happened, so I’m just going to accept that it’s supernatural!”

You need sufficient evidence for your claims. A bunch of kids telling ghost stories, a crowd of people mistakenly thinking that the sun is moving after they stare at it isn’t sufficient to demonstrate that supernatural things are happening.

As for “healings,” this is another great example of a miracle that you could empirically demonstrate, if it were actually real. Here’s what you do. You get a few hundred test subjects with terminal illnesses. You give one group water from Lordes; you give another group tap water; you give nothing to the third group. You don’t tell the groups or the doctors which one is getting which water.

You measure the results, and then you repeat this experiment over and over and over.

If this miracle business is actually real, we should see a statistically significant increase in the number of remissions among those people treated with the miraculous water.

So why hasn’t anyone done this yet? Go on, prove us skeptics wrong.

Translation: “The conclusions of scholarship are fine unless they call into question my preconceived notions.”

What an utter joke.

And incidentally, you haven’t addressed my claim: Stories are not sufficient evidence of the supernatural.

Address post #98.

 

[buffalo]

Study finds proximal prayer may help another person’s healing

Findings reported today from a new international study of healing prayer suggest that prayer for another person’s healing just might help – especially if the one praying is physically near the person being prayed for.
Candy Gunther Brown, an associate professor in the Department of Religious Studies at Indiana University Bloomington, led the study of “proximal intercessory prayer” for healing. It is available online today and will be published in the September 2010 issue of the Southern Medical Journal.

more…

 

[thegreypiper]

It is not at all controversial among Biblical scholars that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are names attributed to anonymous, non-eyewitness authors. …

. Even if you could demonstrate that the Gospels were all written the next day by eyewitnesses – something you can’t demonstrate because it’s not true – it couldn’t be evidence that supernatural things happen.

Stories cannot demonstrate that the supernatural happened.

Very neat. Choose something you wish to deny, then explain why there is nothing you would accept as proof of its existence. Talk about dealing with a stacked deck.

Regarding authorship of the Gospels, the Biblical ‘scholars’ you mention are only one of several schools of thought – these represent the most extreme of the denialists, and who most likely start from the presumption – or the with the desire – to discredit Christianity and the Church. In other words, they are agenda-driven. I assume these are also the same ‘scholars’ who would have us believe that there was never even such a man as Jesus of Nazareth, and that the Gospels were cobbled together from a half-dozen different forgotten rabble-rousers and quaint folk tales.

It’s interesting, I never hear these ‘scholars’ question the existence of Mohammed or Buddha. Tell me, Mr I’m-So-Clever Antitheist, did Mohammed really exist? And what evidence points to his reality that lacks for Jesus? Please offer the same opinion on Buddha, Confucius, Socrates, and/or Julius Caesar.

 

[Thyme]

Study finds proximal prayer may help another person’s healing

Findings reported today from a new international study of healing prayer suggest that prayer for another person’s healing just might help – especially if the one praying is physically near the person being prayed for.
Candy Gunther Brown, an associate professor in the Department of Religious Studies at Indiana University Bloomington, led the study of “proximal intercessory prayer” for healing. It is available online today and will be published in the September 2010 issue of the Southern Medical Journal.

more…

Wow, thank you for posting this link. Sorry to change the subject slightly, but does it imply that the pentecostal way (such as touching them while praying) is more efficient than simply praying quietly?

 

[thegreypiper]

Just a brief follow-up: science does a very good job of describing a portion of Creation, but what it is capable of describing is far from the only part, and possibly not even the most important part.

To any human being, the immaterial things have always been the most important and most valued, whether it is love, courage, honor, liberty, or happiness. There is no equation for courage, no litmus test for love. But even the most determinedly materialistic sceptic is driven as much by the ineffable as any cloistered monk. Why, AT, are you so passionate about your atheism, unless it is because you believe it to be true? That passion alone establishes that you do not advocate materialism or scepticism for its own sake, but because you believe that Truth is an abstract value worthy of your attention.

So much for Mr Jefferson’s derision for immaterial things. And by the way, isn’t that the same Thomas Jefferson who once announced that there are no stones in the sky, therefore stones cannot fall from the sky, as the credulous stories of unlearned peasants asserted?

 

[Nan_S]

There is a poem that someone posted on here. If you haven’t read the Bible, it’s basically about the Jews wanting more-and-more proof after each miracle. .

*Jesus, I am overjoyed to meet you face to face. *
*You’ve been getting quite a name all around the place. *
*Healing cripples, raising from the dead. *
*And now I understand you’re God, *
At least, that’s what you’ve said.

*So, you are the Christ, you’re the great Jesus Christ. *
*Prove to me that you’re divine; change my water into wine. *
*That’s all you need do, then I’ll know it’s all true. *
Come on, King of the Jews.
[and so on…]

Thanks for posting that. It summarizes a typical disbeliever’s attitude pretty concisely.

It’s not a poem, actually. It’s a song from Jesus Christ Superstar, sung by Herod while he is interrogating Jesus prior to returning Him to Pilate for execution.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Thanks for posting that. It summarizes a typical disbeliever’s attitude pretty concisely.

It’s not a poem, actually. It’s a song from Jesus Christ Superstar, sung by Herod while he is interrogating Jesus prior to returning Him to Pilate for execution.

A pretty good song too!

 

[Nan_S]

Wow, thank you for posting this link. Sorry to change the subject slightly, but does it imply that the pentecostal way (such as touching them while praying) is more efficient than simply praying quietly?

Not necessarily. But we are physical beings, not just intellectual ones, and we respond better when our other senses are engaged. Human touch makes a difference. It’s like the difference between hearing the words “I love you” and getting a hug.