So WHY Don't you believe in the Real Presence?

[Roy5]

Am leaving this thread because I’ve stated my case. I believe that Christ is with us always, but not especially in a piece of consecrated bread or a chalice filled with wine. Yes, scripture is quoted, but the Bible - including the teachings of Jesus - is full of figurative language.

 Let me simply add that I'm well aware that avid Catholics must stoutly defend transubstantiation because it stands at the very center of their faith. To many of us who have both Catholic and Protestant heritage there is much attractive about Catholicism, but in my mind freedom to hold various interpretations of scripture is important. Blame it on whatever you wish. Ego. Misunderstanding. Poor religious education. Rebelliousness. I simply need the right to weigh, ponder, investigate, question, and even doubt. Frankly, I don't believe in a God who gave is brains and then expects us to march lock-step in accord with any church or book. I believe I honor God by recognizing that the Lord is beyond human comprehension. As the Bible says, we are challenged to walk by faith, not by sight. But believing the unbelievable - sorry, not for me.

 I am certainly not a sola scriptura Protestant. I have the same problem with fundamentalist Protestants as I do with zealous orthodox Catholics. You must believe as they believe or you are wrong, and perhaps in danger of eternal damnation. I love and treasure the excitement and freedom to think, sometimes perhaps even disagreeing with what I thought a decade or two ago. God knows the ultimate truth and that is enough for me. I wonder if those who think they have the spiritual truth by the tail do so because they need spiritual security. Others like to feel that they are among those who know the truth while Protestants and others are not so blessed. Most often it has been simply the way they were raised. But remember Matt. 7:1-2. Fortunately, my parents appreciated independent thinking and made no effort to impose their views upon us once we were teenagers and beyond.

 But I'm not upset with anybody. I'm  happy for those who find strength and comfort and spiritual energy in believing that the Catholic Church has all the answers to essential questions. Personally, I've come to the conclusion that we live in a universe too big, too mysterious, too magnificent and too miraculous for any human beings to understand it. We're like cats trying to tell cats all about a piano. 

 God bless everybody. Let's make religion less a barrier and more of a bridge. Peace to all!

 

[PRmerger]

Am leaving this thread because I’ve stated my case. I believe that Christ is with us always, but not especially in a piece of consecrated bread or a chalice filled with wine. Yes, scripture is quoted, but the Bible - including the teachings of Jesus - is full of figurative language.

 Let me simply add that I'm well aware that avid Catholics must stoutly defend transubstantiation because it stands at the very center of their faith. To many of us who have both Catholic and Protestant heritage there is much attractive about Catholicism, but in my mind freedom to hold various interpretations of scripture is important. Blame it on whatever you wish. Ego. Misunderstanding. Poor religious education. Rebelliousness. I simply need the right to weigh, ponder, investigate, question, and even doubt. Frankly, I don't believe in a God who gave is brains and then expects us to march lock-step in accord with any church or book. I believe I honor God by recognizing that the Lord is beyond human comprehension. As the Bible says, we are challenged to walk by faith, not by sight. But believing the unbelievable - sorry, not for me.

 I am certainly not a sola scriptura Protestant. I have the same problem with fundamentalist Protestants as I do with zealous orthodox Catholics. You must believe as they believe or you are wrong, and perhaps in danger of eternal damnation. I love and treasure the excitement and freedom to think, sometimes perhaps even disagreeing with what I thought a decade or two ago. God knows the ultimate truth and that is enough for me. I wonder if those who think they have the spiritual truth by the tail do so because they need spiritual security. Others like to feel that they are among those who know the truth while Protestants and others are not so blessed. Most often it has been simply the way they were raised. But remember Matt. 7:1-2. Fortunately, my parents appreciated independent thinking and made no effort to impose their views upon us once we were teenagers and beyond.

 But I'm not upset with anybody. I'm  happy for those who find strength and comfort and spiritual energy in believing that the Catholic Church has all the answers to essential questions. Personally, I've come to the conclusion that we live in a universe too big, too mysterious, too magnificent and too miraculous for any human beings to understand it. We're like cats trying to tell cats all about a piano. 

 God bless everybody. Let's make religion less a barrier and more of a bridge. Peace to all!

Roy, I appreciate your candor.

However, I will always point out your contradictory paradigm whenever I read your posts.

You claim to allow and even celebrate a diversity of opinions–yet this is quite disingenous of you. There are only a finite set of opinions that you would permit.

To wit:

• You would not celebrate a Christian’s right to profess that God hates women.
• You would not celebrate a Christian’s right to proclaim that God abhors inter-racial marriages.
• You would not celebrate a Christian’s right to proclaim that God and Satan are the same.

This is why I take issue with your paradigm. It seems as if you are tolerant and open-minded, abjuring those who are intolerant and closeminded…yet you espouse the same ideals that you repudiate.

Why are you allowed to disallow certain tenets as being un-Christian, yet Catholics cannot?

 

[jediliz]

My question for those who don’t believe in the true presence…then what WAS Jesus saying when he said “I AM THE LIVING BREAD COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”?

 

[cooterhein]

My question for those who don’t believe in the true presence…then what WAS Jesus saying when he said “I AM THE LIVING BREAD COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”?

Obviously some kind of typology. Also, “It may be remarked that in the language which he used the transition from bread to his flesh would appear more easy than it does in our language. The same word which in Hebrew means “bread,” in the Syriac and Arabic means also “flesh.”” (Barne’s notes on the Bible). And from Wesley’s notes, “This whole discourse concerning his flesh and blood refers directly to his passion, and but remotely, if at all, to the Lord’s Supper.”

Speaking of typology as it relates to Jesus and manna, you remember Numbers 11 and Numbers 21, right? That’s when the children of Israel are punished for (respectively) despising and loathing the bread that came down out of heaven. You know what that means, right?

Ohnoes! Even though the manna didn’t transform itself into the flesh of Jesus Christ, there was a substantial penalty for those who completely disrespected it! So I guess this typology that Jesus indicates in John actually has some bearing on 1 Corinthians 11 where it talks about people eating and drinking judgment on themselves when they eat a slightly different bread-type substance in an unworthy manner. (Judgment unspecified). We know what the judgments were in Numbers, though- fire and serpents.

But that doesn’t make any sense, because it’s just food! I mean, if God didn’t transform the manna into something that contained His body, blood, soul, and divinity (by means of a very specific process whose details were finally worked out completely in the 12th century), there’s absolutely no reason to judge anyone based on what they do to it, think of it, or do with it. See, that’s the flaw with these so-called Christians who think Communion is “just” “merely” “only” a symbolic memorial. (It’s obviously deficient- I picked all the adjectives that indicate this). But if that’s all it is, unspecified judgment for eating and drinking in an unworthy manner (drinking may be done by proxy) is clearly illogical because nobody would punish someone or judge them for eating and drinking a symbol in an unworthy manner.

Come on, Yahweh, it’s just manna! The people probably didn’t even know it symbolized the Messiah. They got tired of the same old miracle every day; can you blame them? So what’s up with the fire and the serpents?

Okay, okay, I guess God is one exception. Maybe He is the one person who might bring some judgment because of a symbol. But it was just that one time. Just the manna. He was having an off day. There’s no way He would do that with manna and then with completely symbolic Communion elements, too. Seriously, it makes absolutely no sense. There’s no way God makes that mistake twice.

 

[cooterhein]

I note that a Christian may be posed with the same challenge from an atheist.

No you may not.

"You say that this man, this human being who was crucified, was God Incarnate. Give me some of his flesh, and let’s see if it looks divine.

Not possible. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.

We can do all sorts of things to figure this out. I’m pretty sure that if we examine his heart muscle under a microscope, it’s going to look, well, human. Nothing divine in that cardiac muscle. "

Two things. First, even if you’re an atheist who doesn’t believe in the Ascension or any other Christological doctrine, you don’t have any of Jesus’ heart muscle to look at under a microscope. And second, no Christological doctrine exists that should cause you to expect Jesus’ earthly body to be any different from another human body.

Do you see where this paradigm leads you, cooterhein? You are then unable to provide apologia for the Incarnation.

Even for you, PR, this is really sub-par.

It would seem, cooterhein, that if you take the position you have, that you would be unable to evangelize an atheist, or Muslim, or pagan who would find all of the above “absurdities”.

When people disagree on whether or not something’s an absurdity, you must be prepared to demonstrate the truth of the matter one way or the other. This is true.

When I run into atheists, Muslims, and pagans (also Catholics every once in awhile), I do my best to be prepared. I hope you do the same as well.

 

[PRmerger]

No you may not.

Huh?

Not possible. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.

Yet he was here on earth for at least 30 years, yes? Some Roman could have demanded a piece of his flesh to determine if it was actually divine.

He would have found…nothing materially that declared this flesh was divine, right?
Many looked at Jesus and saw only a poor example of a man, not God Incarnate.

It makes a great parallel with the Eucharist. Many look at the Eucharist and see only a poor example of bread*, not the Real Presence.

(*Some wags have noted, "It takes more faith to believe that this little wafer is actually bread than it does to believe it’s the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Heh. )

Two things. First, even if you’re an atheist who doesn’t believe in the Ascension or any other Christological doctrine, you don’t have any of Jesus’ heart muscle to look at under a microscope.

Yet if you did, what do you think they’d find**? What does “divinity” look like under a microscope?

**This is what atheists would find, and it would only affirm the atheist’s right to say, “See! He is NOT divine. It’s just a piece of bread! Nothing divine there!” (Oh, I mean “It’s just a piece of mammalian heart tissue. Nothing divine there!”)



[SIGN1]See what happens if you deny the RP in the Eucharist, cooterhein? You end up not being able to defend the Incarnation. :sad_yes:[/SIGN1]

And second, no Christological doctrine exists that should cause you to expect Jesus’ earthly body to be any different from another human body.

'kay.

'Tis a non-sequitur, but…okay.

Even for you, PR, this is really sub-par.

My dear little brother, perhaps you can visit my Profile Page (again) to see what “even for you” means;your curiosity about me is endearing, to be sure! :curtsey:

Or perhaps you can PM me (again).

When people disagree on whether or not something’s an absurdity, you must be prepared to demonstrate the truth of the matter one way or the other. This is true.

'kay.

When I run into atheists, Muslims, and pagans (also Catholics every once in awhile), I do my best to be prepared. I hope you do the same as well.

That’s why I’m here.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by rinnie
Now Roy we have another problem. You seem to believe that Jesus broke his promise to us or something.

When a Pope and his Bishops agree on a church Doctrine, and it is to be believed by all it is NOT Man made. Do you not remember what Jesus told his Aposltes. I am sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to guide you into ALL TRUTHS.

Now what that means is when they SAY that they SPEAK in the name of God and God promised them this power they mean it and God meant it.

Now let me ask you, do you believe Jesus when he said that he would send the Advocate the Holy Spirit and it did indeed come on Pentecost? Do you believe that as CHrist said the advocate would lead you into ALL truths until the end of Age?

I AM DEEPLY SADENED BY ROYS FINAL POST.

Lets hold him up to the LORD is prayer, that somehow he’ll find the humility and courage to accept the TRUTH before he dies.

I’d like to add to rinnis points because it is Critial to finding the TRUTH.

Mt. 16: 16 Christ gives 'the key’s to the gate of heaven to Peter and His One Faith Church.
This can ONLY mean that in the furture then [present now] ALL access to heaven WILL and MUST FFlow through the CC.

Just as the Bible is inspired an protected in it’s Teachings; God Himself makes the same assurances for ALL TIMES and ALL teachings of Faith -beleif and Morals.

John.20:19 - 22 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. *** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit***

This takes place at the First Pentcost celebration. SEVERAL critical things are accomplished here that effect SALVATION for all; UNTIL THE END OF TIME.

1. CHRIST OFFICIALLY Inaugurates "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." MEANING: With MY Godly Powers and with My Godly Authority. Then He Immediately SENDS the Holy Spirit to Insure the truthful Teaching of His Churcn.

No other Faith in the History of the World [except Judism in the OT] can make a similar cliam. John.14 to 17 NOW ACCOMPLISHED FOR ALL TIME> And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you." and then to further solidify this warranty BY GOD: John.17: 15 to 19 "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them in the truth; ***thy word is truth. *** **As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. **[19] ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

Secular History PROVES that at the time these were spoken by Christ [GOD], the only "church and christian Faith in existence in the ENTIRE WORLD is todays CC.

Therefore ALL who usurp God authority and choose to DIFFER with what God and HIS CC Teach on ALL matters of Faith-belief and Morals; do so at extreme risk to there souls.

Th Bible Proves time and time again God’s desire for ONLY Once God [triune], One Faith [set of beliefs: Catholic] and One Church. IF I’M WRONG ABOUT ONLY ONE FEEL FREE TO PROVE IT.

God Bless you, and Lord save Roy despite his obsteinence. AMEN,
Pat

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cooterhein;8186065]Obviously some kind of typology. Also, “It may be remarked that in the language which he used the transition from bread to his flesh would appear more easy than it does in our language. The same word which in Hebrew means “bread,” in the Syriac and Arabic means also “flesh.”” (Barne’s notes on the Bible). And from Wesley’s notes, “This whole discourse concerning his flesh and blood refers directly to his passion, and but remotely, if at all, to the Lord’s Supper.”

Speaking of typology as it relates to Jesus and manna, you remember Numbers 11 and Numbers 21, right? That’s when the children of Israel are punished for (respectively) despising and loathing the bread that came down out of heaven. You know what that means, right?

There are many details you have not touched on in regards to these teachings of Jesus and the old testament Manna = “what is this”, which came down from heaven. Jesus used words to gnaw and chew on his flesh, the hebrew idiom is very litteral flesh and blood.

Some of the different times in history how God has revealed Himself to man.

God has revealed Himself in the cool of the day with Adam, In the whispering wind, a burning bush, a serpent on a pole, in a fire by night and cloud by day in the desert, God revealed the back of His glory to Moses when God passed by Moses and placed His hand over Moses as He passed by, God revealed Himself in the Holy of Holies, should anyone pass across the holy of holies would drop dead, God revealed Himself in the Ark of the Covenant, when Ussiah touched it died instantly, God revealed Himself in a Rock when Moses was to strike the Rock once so that water would come out to give drink to the Israelites in the desert. God revealed Himself in His Word, when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and His own did not accept Him, now God reveals His presence to His Church in His Eucharist of bread and wine. How difficult is that? What God can do.

 

[rinnie]

Jesus said THIS is my body which will be given up for you, This is my blood that will be shed for you. Do this in memory of me.

Now we have those who reject the words of Christ, they say that the bread does not become the true bread from heaven and the wine does not become the true blood of Christ. Okay now then we have another problem.

Then if his bread and wine do not become the true body and blood how are we to gain eternal life. Because as I explained earlier Christ said if you do not eat the TRUE body of Christ there is no life in you.

Also then if we reject that Jesus meant what he said, the we can also reject that he lived out those words also then correct?

This is my Body which WILL be given up for you, SO then I guess he really did not give up his body and give it up for us on the cross? THis is my blood that will be shed for ALL?

SO he did not shed his blood for all now then either?

How could Christ not mean those words, but then turn around RIGHT after and do just EXACTLY what he said he was going to do.

He gave up his body and he shed his blood on the cross. How can people believe that ONE Man can die and by his death free every single man and women until the end of age from thier sins, but then not be able to turn bread and wine into the living body and blood from heaven which is to give us eternal life.

SO then if we reject the Eucharist why then not reject the cross also. I mean how do you choose to believe SOME things Christ said, but REJECT others.How is this done? Do you flip a coin?

 

[rinnie]

There are many details you have not touched on in regards to these teachings of Jesus and the old testament Manna = “what is this”, which came down from heaven. Jesus used words to gnaw and chew on his flesh, the hebrew idiom is very litteral flesh and blood.

Some of the different times in history how God has revealed Himself to man.

God has revealed Himself in the cool of the day with Adam, In the whispering wind, a burning bush, a serpent on a pole, in a fire by night and cloud by day in the desert, God revealed the back of His glory to Moses when God passed by Moses and placed His hand over Moses as He passed by, God revealed Himself in the Holy of Holies, should anyone pass across the holy of holies would drop dead, God revealed Himself in the Ark of the Covenant, when Ussiah touched it died instantly, God revealed Himself in a Rock when Moses was to strike the Rock once so that water would come out to give drink to the Israelites in the desert. God revealed Himself in His Word, when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and His own did not accept Him, now God reveals His presence to His Church in His Eucharist of bread and wine. How difficult is that? What God can do.

Here is where I believe the WHOLE problem begins. If you accept the words of Christ, and you believe that he is the true living bread from heaven how can you refuse to become a part of the Catholic Church. Because where can you receive the True living bread from heaven, apart from the Catholic Church?

Another wards how can you receive Christ outside of his Church?

WHat protestatant Preacher WILL say that they CAN indeed change regular bread and wine into the true living bread from heaven. I have never heard ONE say that they can do this, SO you must either admit that you do not have the power of the Holy Spirit by the Laying of hands to change regular bread and wine into the true living Christ, or you deny the words of Christ that the Apostles MUST DO THIS, or CAN DO THIS.

If you are to accept the HARD TEACHING which Christ warned us, its hard to accept, but it can be accepted because as the words of our Dear St Peter said where WOULD I GO.

It is something for all to think about. Where are you going? Why do you not have this living bread from heaven the TRUE bread that gives eternal life. If you claim that YOU DO have it, you have to admit it is only available in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. You must wonder WHY, WHY only the OHCAC.

Christ never said this is a SIGN, he said this is TRUE bread from heaven.

 

[PJM]

cooterhein;8186065]Obviously some kind of typology. Also, “It may be remarked that in the language which he used the transition from bread to his flesh would appear more easy than it does in our language. The same word which in Hebrew means “bread,” in the Syriac and Arabic means also “flesh.”” (Barne’s notes on the Bible). And from Wesley’s notes, “This whole discourse concerning his flesh and blood refers directly to his passion, and but remotely, if at all, to the Lord’s Supper.”

Speaking of typology as it relates to Jesus and manna, you remember Numbers 11 and Numbers 21, right? That’s when the children of Israel are punished for (respectively) despising and loathing the bread that came down out of heaven. You know what that means, right?

We do BUT do YOU understand my friend? As I recall it concluded in Yahweh giving them “flesh to eat” [Also in Numbers chapter 11] PJM

BALANCE from Gaberialof12

There are many details you have not touched on in regards to these teachings of Jesus and the old testament Manna = “what is this”, which came down from heaven. Jesus used words to gnaw and chew on his flesh, the hebrew idiom is very litteral flesh and blood.

Some of the different times in history how God has revealed Himself to man.

God has revealed Himself in the cool of the day with Adam, In the whispering wind, a burning bush, a serpent on a pole, in a fire by night and cloud by day in the desert, God revealed the back of His glory to Moses when God passed by Moses and placed His hand over Moses as He passed by, God revealed Himself in the Holy of Holies, should anyone pass across the holy of holies would drop dead, God revealed Himself in the Ark of the Covenant, when Ussiah touched it died instantly, God revealed Himself in a Rock when Moses was to strike the Rock once so that water would come out to give drink to the Israelites in the desert. God revealed Himself in His Word, when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and His own did not accept Him, now God reveals His presence to His Church in His Eucharist of bread and wine. How difficult is that? What God can do.

 

[SnakeMauler]

I believe in the Real Presence. Any other sort of false doctrine is the result of greedy lazy people. Please pray for my soul that I make it back to church again and back to confession as I’ve fallen away recently and that I can overcome my sins. Thank you.

-Snakemauler

 

[PRmerger]

I believe in the Real Presence. Any other sort of false doctrine is the result of greedy lazy people. Please pray for my soul that I make it back to church again and back to confession as I’ve fallen away recently and that I can overcome my sins. Thank you.

-Snakemauler

Prayers going up right now, Snake.

St Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil!

 

[rinnie]

I believe in the Real Presence. Any other sort of false doctrine is the result of greedy lazy people. Please pray for my soul that I make it back to church again and back to confession as I’ve fallen away recently and that I can overcome my sins. Thank you.

-Snakemauler

Hey buddy, thats why the Church is here. The CC is not here to condemn us, but to forgive us and save us from our sins.

Remember Church is for sinnners. We are all there praying and asking for forgivness for what we have done and what we have failed to do, and we ask the Blessed Mary and all the Saints to pray for us through our dear Lord.

 

[PJM]

=rinnie;8198729]Jesus said THIS is my body which will be given up for you, This is my blood that will be shed for you. Do this in memory of me.

Now we have those who reject the words of Christ, they say that the bread does not become the true bread from heaven and the wine does not become the true blood of Christ. Okay now then we have another problem.

Then if his bread and wine do not become the true body and blood how are we to gain eternal life. Because as I explained earlier Christ said if you do not eat the TRUE body of Christ there is no life in you.

Also then if we reject that Jesus meant what he said, the we can also reject that he lived out those words also then correct?

This is my Body which WILL be given up for you, SO then I guess he really did not give up his body and give it up for us on the cross? THis is my blood that will be shed for ALL?

SO he did not shed his blood for all now then either?

How could Christ not mean those words, but then turn around RIGHT after and do just EXACTLY what he said he was going to do.

He gave up his body and he shed his blood on the cross. How can people believe that ONE Man can die and by his death free every single man and women until the end of age from thier sins, but then not be able to turn bread and wine into the living body and blood from heaven which is to give us eternal life.

SO then if we reject the Eucharist why then not reject the cross also. I mean how do you choose to believe SOME things Christ said, but REJECT others.How is this done? Do you flip a coin?

GREAT JOB!
Thank you,
Pat